Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Colleagues, I call this 46th meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Today we are undertaking the continuation of our review of Bill C-27.

For my colleagues' sake, as well as for those who are attending here today, I want you to be aware that we have been notified that there is a possibility of a vote in the House of Commons, which will require all members of Parliament to return to the House of Commons for that vote once it begins.

To accommodate that vote—and, Dennis, if you would just jump in here and maybe listen—I would seek the consent of committee members to undertake something that is a bit unusual. We would hear the testimony from our first witnesses, have 10 minutes of that, and then we would bring to the table the remaining witnesses who have arrived for the second hour, just to ensure that we get on the record the testimony of all the witnesses we have here today. It would be unfortunate if we didn't at least get that on the record, considering the fact that many of our witnesses have travelled a considerable time to be here. I will see if there is consent to undertake that type of a set-up.

We will begin the questioning before the bells, if that can happen. If not, we'll possibly come back after the vote, depending on what the timeframe looks like. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Is there consent to move forward on that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Okay, let's do that.

We want to thank our witnesses for being here. We have two witnesses from the First Nations Financial Management Board: Mr. Calla, who will be bringing forward testimony, as well as Ms. Point.

Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you taking the time to bring testimony to our committee in review of this important bill.

We'll turn it over to you for 10 minutes, give or take, and then we'll accommodate additional witnesses. We'll give some direction once you've completed the opening statement.

[Harold Calla, Chairman, First Nations Financial Management Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to be here today.

You may recall that the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act was passed in 2005 with all-party support. It was a bill that was designed to create an opportunity for first nations to access long-term public debt, to increase their revenue rates and capacity, and to be in a position where they were certified for their financial management practices and financial performance.

The world that the first nations find themselves in today is considerably different from that of previous years. Changes in generally accepted accounting principles, the need to engage the capital markets, and the opportunity to consider more complex business opportunities, both on and off reserve, require first nations to utilize skill sets that may not be currently present within the administration of many of the communities. Financial and business acumen are playing a significant role in the success or failure of engagement with the economic mainstream. Moving to the process-based decision-making model contemplated in FMB standards supports the community in the pursuit of its goals and objectives.

We have reviewed Bill C-27, and Shayla has worked over the weekend to prepare a schedule that looks at the provisions of the bill and at FMB standards.

I realize you may have just received that, but it would be appropriate at some point—at your leisure, if you're trying to get to sleep at night—that you read that.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Harold Calla]

I think it is important that you look at it.

The chart sets out the differences between the two. The most significant difference is that under the FSMA, a first nation chooses to pass its own financial administration law and agrees to have the Financial Management Board determine whether they're compliant. This particular legislation focuses on audits and salaries of councillors.

I should say that I did serve on the board of CMHC, and I've served on other boards where this kind of information is reported on regularly. You may be a bit surprised about what I'm going to say.

First of all, an audit is a look at history. It's a reactive statement, and it's not designed to be proactive in informing and supporting future decisions. While an audit is a necessary and important part of the overall financial management system, there are many other elements of a financial management system that should not be lost in this discussion.

All orders of government are accountable. Within the federal system, the need for an increased emphasis on oversight within budgeting and forecasting has been recognized as a best practice with the establishment of a parliamentary budget officer. This is an example of an evolving world and perspective of what practices and standards should become as part of the overall financial management system. Good financial management practices should not be defined solely by political objectives. Good financial management should be driven by the needs of all stakeholders and should inform them.

In the case of first nations, this should include the financial results of the transaction activity it undertakes for the delivery of programs and services that a first nation is mandated to deliver. Although an audit does contain notes, these notes are generally a clarification of financial facts. An audit does not make qualitative observations or recommendations, nor does it give a clear indication of future direction.

An annual report—and you should look at the definition in our standards of what that might be—does contain an audit, which is an essential part of a financial management reporting system. But it goes beyond that to respond to the inquiries of stakeholders and membership. It gives a more complete picture of the affairs of the nation. An annual report could be designed to respond to many of the overlapping reporting requirements currently facing first nations administrations in their relationship with funding agencies and could look at both the past and the future. I believe this approach is of interest to membership and all stakeholders.

On the issue of reporting salaries, the legislation has not mirrored best practices that give confidence in the private sector to the lending and capital markets. I would direct you to FMB standards on this matter to assist you in evaluating the differences.

The purpose of measures that support financial reporting or being accountable and transparent should create confidence in all stakeholder groups in the financial management capacity of the entity and give an indication of their fiscal capacity. It is always better when stakeholder groups, in this case our communities, are able to establish the accountability and transparency framework that they wish to establish for their community. It is best that these are guided by best practices and standards that are consistent with the expectations of other orders of government within Canada.

I think it's important to ask whether it's appropriate that first nations are being asked to be held to a higher standard. That's a question for you.

It is best if communities pass their own laws and agree to independent oversight by third parties. This is the concept developed by the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, and it is currently being explored by 58 of the approximately 100 first nations that have become scheduled under the act.

It is our hope that in time, every community in this country will see the benefit of passing its own financial administration law, consistent with FMB standards, to assist them in managing their financial affairs in an accountable and transparent way. Doing so will support risk management as communities move to implement strategies to support their social, economic, and financial goals.

In coming here today, I feel compelled to point out that while this legislation deals with some of the issues, good financial management, transparency, and accountability is a topic much broader than the four goalposts of this legislation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Calla. We certainly appreciate that opening statement.

Colleagues, as we had determined, because of the possibility of a vote in the House, we will now move to the additional witnesses we had planned to hear in the second hour.

I should ask, Mr. Calla, whether you are available to stay through the next hour and a half if need be.

[Harold Calla]

Yes, I am. I have an eight o'clock flight, and if I'm allowed to take it, I will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We will be absolutely sure that you're able to do that.

According to our list, we have Mr. John Paul, who comes from Membertou First Nation.

I don't want to rush you into your opening statement, John. Are you prepared? Would you be able to begin?

[John Paul, Member, Membertou First Nation]

I'm good.

It's a pleasure to be here. I'm very pleased to come here today to represent our chief, Chief Terrance Paul, from our community of Membertou, which is my own community. Accountability, transparency, and disclosure of information to our people is very important to our leadership and all members in the community, whether it be elders, youth, young mothers, or children. Over decades our community has provided full disclosure of our complete audit, and more recently on our website, at www.membertou.ca, the complete details of compensation to all the members of council.

We do this because we believe in informing and maintaining a strong trust relationship with the entire community. Such information is essential so that all members, both on and off reserve, clearly understand what our council is doing to make their lives better and benefit all the members of our community. The legislation, Bill C-27, An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations, will have no impact on our community because we already make these disclosures as a matter of practice. We provide all this information on our public website, which is accessible to our community members and to the general public.

I do have concerns that the process will be imposed on me and others, even though we already do this. I think such strong action does impact the relationship between our community and the federal government, in particular the fairness of treatment, where everybody states that we are first nations and have a government-to-government relationship.

Secondly, I wonder about the degree to which such actions will ensure supporting our efforts to achieve self-reliance and economic independence for our community and our people. For the communities that have made this disclosure as a matter of practice for at least five years and that have strong governance and accountability, has any thought been given to perhaps exempting them from the provisions of this new act?

Another key issue is the considerable work our community has done, beyond certain land section provisions of the Indian Act, to move under the First Nations Land Management Act to further control our future. On finances, our community continues to be ISO certified, and additionally, our first nation has made further efforts to be certified by the Financial Management Board and thus to move on to access long-term financial capital from the First Nations Finance Authority.

All of this work we have done as a first nation I believe clearly demonstrates our high standard of governance and accountability. I feel we are a government and do all the things needed to build trust, credibility, and confidence in the way we work for the best interests of our community.

In addition to what we do publicly, our first nation community must also still comply with all the detailed reporting requirements as decreed by the Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada reporting handbook, developed by AANDC alone, as per the conditions of the five-year multi-year funding agreement that we have signed with AANDC. The time my staff has to spend to complete these obligations is significant and is done at our own first nation's cost. These reporting requirements and the need for documentation seem to have increased, even though a few years ago the Conservative government committed to an improved funding relationship. The continual and increasing reporting burden on our first nation must be addressed.

This act addresses only issues of audit disclosure and disclosure of compensation of councils. Nowhere does the act help address the short two-year timeframe of councils under the Indian Act system or the issue of providing pensionable earnings for first nations leaders who have dedicated their entire lives to the service of their communities.

All the information required by the new act is already being provided by the first nations in Canada to AANDC, as per their existing funding agreements over years and decades. Only last year the issue was pushed to the forefront, and now a bill will require all first nations to comply or INAC or AANDC will release the information, and as a last resort, all funding will be stopped.

Has anybody fully looked at the implications of stopping all federal funding and the implications of cancelling a funding agreement for a first nation, or at the people in the community who are depending on these basic services, such as educational, social, infrastructure, and health services?

From my perspective, the real issue that needs action is the urgent need for full recognition and implementation of our aboriginal and treaty rights. These rights, not addressed, will continue to be real liabilities to governments.

From the starting point of our rights, our first nations communities and people would, I feel, have the needed tools to move over time from the current heavy reliance on federal funding and programs towards real economic self-reliance, at a pace that they would decide as a government. It is clear that in many of our communities high levels of poverty persist, and the lack of hope and no clear future is what all first nations leaders have to deal with every day.

The existing reserve system was created a very long time ago. The reserves were supposed to be temporary solutions to the Indian problem; we were supposed to migrate and be assimilated into society. This did not happen, and we continue to thrive and grow as a community and a people.

In our community of Membertou, we must look inward and beyond our community to get enough skilled and educated employees to do all the work that is required for the delivery of services and to pursue many aspects of business and economic development. In Membertou, we support all the community members who have pursued lifelong education and training for employment, to give each person the much-needed knowledge and skill set to succeed.

To the community of Membertou, building economic self-reliance and having a strong, accountable government are keys to ensure that we achieve the long-term goal of ensuring the well-being and continued improvement of the lives of all our people.

Thank you. Wela'lin.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

I should just point out to those who are listening today that we had a wonderful opportunity as a committee to visit the home community of Membertou.

Mr. Paul, we thank you for your time that day as well, and again for coming today.

Colleagues, I've been informed that the vote has been held off, so there is no necessity for us to worry about that now.

But now that we have proceeded in this fashion, I think what we'll do is continue through the opening statements of all witnesses, and then we'll open up to several rounds of questioning from members. Because we've started this way, I think it's best that we continue.

We'll turn now to our representatives from the Norway House Cree Nation. Today we have Mr. Paupanekis, as well as....

I know I'm pronouncing that wrong—I'm being informed by my colleague. I apologize.

We'll turn it over to you now for your opening statement.

I'm always happy to be corrected, because my own last name is often not pronounced correctly.

[Clarence Paupanekis, Councillor, Norway House Cree Nation]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members, thank you on behalf of Norway House Cree Nation for this opportunity to present on the proposed legislation, Bill C-27, An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations.

My name is Councillor Clarence Paupanekis. I'm the finance portfolio holder for Norway House Cree Nation. Chief Ron Evans was unable to take part in today's proceedings; however, he thanks the committee for the invitation and sends his regards to each of you.

As one of many progressive and forward-moving first nations, Norway House Cree Nation, through its chief and council, has worked diligently over the past year and a half to develop an accountability framework, establishing sound financial management and administrative practices and providing good governance, accountability, and transparency. In doing so, Norway House Cree Nation has undertaken strategic planning, internal reorganization, centralization of finances—including the implementation of financial processes to ensure accountability—human resources and capacity building, and social and economic development analysis as well as assessments.

These exercises have been extremely critical in ensuring that we have the human and financial resources necessary to accomplish the many tasks and goals set out by our leadership as part of our strategic planning process and in response to the mandate for Norway House Cree Nation that our membership has given us.

That being said, we have secured the necessary professional capacity, with the necessary skills and experience in the areas of finance, strategic planning, policy, and external relations, to move our community forward.

It is imperative to note, however, that we did this on our own. We have brought in our own team and developed our own financial and strategic plans and have already made great strides, both in social and economic development and in putting our financial house in order.

Chief Darcy Bear, in his presentation to the standing committee last week, reiterated these same sentiments, stating that it is absolutely necessary that first nations obtain their own human resources and professional capacity. The accomplishments of his community speak to the importance of doing so.

These measures ensure that first nations establish sound financial and administrative management so that we can move forward in implementing social and economic development initiatives, including business ventures and partnerships as well as capital projects, that will allow us to generate own-source revenues and meet the needs of our community.

Furthermore, they allow us as first nations to move forward in establishing our own financial management laws, in enabling us to enter into the First Nations Land Management Act under which we have our own certified land managers, to develop land codes, and to negotiate self-government agreements, among other important initiatives.

In order to do any of the latter, a first nation must have both financial and political stability as well as credibility.

It has been recognized that one of the major setbacks for first nations is the constant turnover in leadership, which not only causes instability in our communities, but also causes setbacks in both social and economic development opportunities because of the constant need to re-establish relationships and partnerships, which are critical to providing strong leadership and governance and to accomplishing the tasks before our leaders as well as to establishing opportunities for our membership.

We are hopeful that Bill S-6, the First Nations Elections Act, which is a community, grassroots-led initiative that first nations across the country were engaged in and were consulted on, will be passed by the House of Commons this session so that we can begin to remedy these ongoing issues.

The elements of this bill will establish the necessary foundations to assist us in developing strong accountability frameworks pertaining to elections held for those first nations who are governed by section 74 of the Indian Act—one step further in moving away from the Indian Act—as well as in implementing the mechanisms needed to address issues surrounding election processes and concerns among the membership about ineffective leadership. Further to this, Bill S-6 will remove the authority from the minister of AANDC to oversee first nations elections and appeals.

With respect to Bill C-27, although the intent of the bill with respect to enhancing accountability and transparency for first nations is good, we cannot support the bill in its current form. Like others who have come before the standing committee, we agree that several amendments are required before the legislation can proceed in the House of Commons.

Furthermore, consultation with first nations on the development of this bill has not occurred. However, this is our opportunity to provide input and address our concerns regarding the current reading of the bill. It is imperative to note that first nations members across the country have been asking for greater accountability measures from their governments, and this bill is seen as a response by the Government of Canada for those who have not yet implemented and demonstrated accountability and transparency to their membership.

We agree that accountability and transparency, both of which are pillars of good governance, are important. We as first nations government, as any government, should be required to have mechanisms in place to ensure financial accountability. However, we should be responsible for constructing our own accountability frameworks.

Bill C-27 has received much criticism from first nations as it currently reads, not because of its accountability and transparency implications, but rather due to certain elements of the bill, which would see first nations reporting much more information above and beyond the expectations of public sector accounting principles and standards.

Yes, the reality is that first nations communities receive federal funding, and as such, we have an obligation to be accountable for such funding. However, the reporting mechanisms currently in place continue to overburden our communities, as was articulated by the Auditor General in her 2006 report. This could potentially risk delivery of programs and services our communities are responsible for.

We as first nations should retain the right to choose our priorities and define our financial accountability mechanisms. Our focus should be on ensuring that the funding is in fact used in the most effective way to deliver the programs and services for our people and not spent on the numerous reports that are required to justify the funds we receive, which barely meet the needs of our community.

Furthermore, we should not be held more accountable than federal, provincial, and municipal governments are, and we certainly should not be forced to publicly disclose our audited financial statements on the Internet. It should be left to the individual communities to decide how their audited financial statements should be disseminated and to which of its stakeholders, and not for the government to dictate.

Our practice in Norway House Cree Nation is to hold a community meeting to share our audited financial statements and explain in simple terms what the financial statements read. This information is put in a format that is easily understood by our committee members. Furthermore, our membership can request a copy of the audited financial statements from the band office and members of our council and our CFO. They are all accessible to answer any questions and address any concerns regarding the statements.

Furthermore, we have implemented stringent internal financial approval and reporting processes that ensure that all directors, program managers, and administrators are accountable to our management team and CFO, who in turn report to chief and council on all financial matters. These reports are made on a regular basis to the chief and council at our monthly council meetings, and in turn are reported at our community meetings.

With respect to the disclosure of salaries for chief and council, we agree this information should be disclosed to our members. Like Whitecap Dakota First Nation, we have also done a review of all salaries across our organization and have implemented a competitive and equitable salary grid to keep our people employed within our community.

The expectation to provide a separate annual schedule of remuneration that includes the details of salaries, wages, commissions, bonuses, fees, honoraria, dividends, and expenses paid by the first nation, and any entity controlled by the first nation, to the chief and/or council in their professional and personal capacity should remain internal information. Internal financial accountability with respect to prohibiting double-dipping with respect to travel and honorarium regarding committees, boards, and businesses should be at the discretion of the community. Thus, remuneration should remain consistent with the definition as outlined in the Income Tax Act.

It should also be noted that travel, and expenses related to travel, should not be associated with one salary, or wages, as it is a separate matter. Travel, especially for those who live in remote and isolated communities, continues to be costly, especially to urban centres where business meetings are most often held. Where possible, our community finds every opportunity to hold meetings within the community to reduce travel-related expenditures.

With respect to the public disclosure of private enterprises or band-owned business entities, we also agree that the public disclosure of this information could jeopardize potential partnerships and business ventures by inadvertently scoping in entities. Again, generally accepted accounting principles should be followed here, and first nations should not have to publicly disclose any more information than is the public standard.

Lastly, with regard to alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution, as well as enforcement, this should also be left to each individual community to determine and implement. Our funding agreements in their current form already contain provisions to deal with these matters. What this bill should do is support community-driven processes and provide the tools and mechanisms to support capacity development. This is what our communities and leaders should continue to seek: fairness, equity, and respect through government-to-government relationships.

We all need to be reminded that if our first nations communities prosper, we all prosper. If we work together, we can achieve great things for our communities, provinces, territories, and for our country as a whole.

Thank you again for this opportunity to address Bill C-27.

Ekosani.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much.

Finally, we have representation from Sawridge First Nation. Today we have with us Chief Roland Twinn, who is the chief there but is also the grand chief of Treaty 8, which is the area I also represent, or a part of Treaty 8 is in my riding.

We do want to welcome you here today to make your opening statement as well.

[Chief Roland Twinn, Chief, Sawridge First Nation]

Good afternoon, esteemed members of the standing committee.

I received a letter just yesterday from the chiefs of the Lesser Slave Lake Indian Regional Council in support of my submissions to this table and the proposed amendments.

First, thank you for the invitation to appear before this committee.

I believe the Sawridge First Nation is in a position to make a significant contribution to your deliberations, based on our actual experience. I have a 20-minute presentation, but I will respect your wish to have a five-minute presentation at this time. I present to you the balance of my presentation so that it may be translated into the French language and distributed to the members of the committee.

We are opposed to the passage of this bill because we believe it will be counterproductive to your goal to increase accountability and transparency in first nations governance. If the bill is to be passed, we have suggested amendments that might improve it somewhat. We are suggesting that Parliament encourage the government to take a different path leading to improved governance.

Sawridge First Nation is a part of Treaty No. 8, as well as the original negotiators and signatories to Treaty No. 8. In addition to being an elected chief of the first nation, I'm also Grand Chief of Treaty 8 First Nations of Alberta, which includes all of northern Alberta.

Pursuant to our right of self-government, the Sawridge First Nation is governed by its own constitution. It was adopted after several years of very hard work by the members themselves. The constitution was adopted by a referendum in which 65% of all adult members participated. Over 95% voted in favour of adopting the constitution.

Legislatively, we are governed by a general assembly. Every adult member of the first nation is a member of the legislature. The committee has been sent a copy of the business before the assembly in recent months, so you will see our approach to good governance.

Our executive branch is our chief and council. It reports to the assembly and answers questions raised by the members.

Our constitution calls for an elected audit and compensation committee, which makes recommendations to the assembly regarding compensation and benefits of all officials and staff of the first nation. Those are set by the assembly.

It calls for council to table a budget for approval. Financial reports are also reported. All financial records are available for review by any member.

We have a governance act. It has conflict of interest provisions. As an example, I had to provide to our assembly disclosure that a company had offered me two very good hockey tickets. With my having made that disclosure, the assembly passed a resolution telling me to enjoy the game.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Chief Roland Twinn]

So even as far as a couple of $100 tickets go, I have to present that to the membership.

The members of the Sawridge First Nation have provided themselves with standards of accountability and transparency that go far beyond those available to the people of Canada. We have gone far beyond what the bill before the committee calls for. It is ironic that representatives of the Canadian people now are going to impose requirements telling Sawridge how to provide good governance.

Our chief, council, and officials are paid from the first nation's own money. No so-called taxpayers' money goes toward our governance. I say “so-called taxpayers' money” because our business generates far, far more tax revenue—which goes to both federal and provincial governments—than the much smaller amount we receive from them.

Proud as we are of our own accomplishments, we say that we have done nothing that any first nation can't do. The potential is there. The realization of that potential is the real accountability that we as leaders owe to our people. The way the federal government can enhance that potential is not by requiring disclosure; it can help reverse the history it has caused over the decades by providing encouragement, rewarding initiatives, and promoting best practices.

The approach taken by Bill C-27 simply reinforces the “great white father knows best” syndrome, rather than releasing the potential of our people. It will cause resentment rather than building relationships. But worse, it could place us at a serious competitive disadvantage. The bill would make legal something that the courts have ruled is illegal. The bill before you is not a step toward accountability and transparency, but rather is a regrettable step backwards in having good governance by first nations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Grand Chief.

We'll turn it over to my colleagues now to begin the rounds of questioning.

We'll go to Mr. Genest-Jourdain for the first seven minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Calla.

Is the simultaneous interpretation working?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I apologize. I should have informed the witnesses that we do have direct translation on channel 1, I believe. It will be the English channel.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Calla, I will ask you several questions at once which deal with the interaction of Bill C-27 and the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act.

In your opening presentation, you indicated that a certain number of communities support the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, and had passed laws in that regard. Could you tell us exactly how many communities did just that?

In fact, I would like to know whether, in your view, Bill C-27 would apply to first nations which have endorsed the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, and which had passed laws in that regard.

Further, do you think there is a risk of inconsistency between the application of Bill C-27 as worded and the application of the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act? This is another question to find out whether there is any potential inconsistency in the application of these two pieces of legislation.

I also have questions regarding the true scope of the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act and Bill C-27. Again, in your opinion, does the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act go farther than Bill C-27?

[Harold Calla]

I think I'll get all the questions.

There are presently, according to Shayla, 98 first nations communities scheduled. If you're going to do anything to help us, let's get the Governor in Council moving. It is not pleasant to see the time it takes to get scheduled under this act, so one recommendation I'm making here is to get them moving.

Of those 98 that are currently scheduled under the act, we are actively involved with 58 of those communities. As well, 16 of those have financial administration laws, and I expect by the end of the year we'll have close to 30 with financial administration laws.

There is considerable interest in this now because of the significant consultation and accommodation that is taking place in first nations communities across the country. I would like to note that many in Quebec are now coming forward to participate in this initiative because they need access to capital, and it's going to facilitate these consultation and accommodation negotiations.

They are prepared to engage in the development of financial administration laws, to look at financial performance. We not only provide a financial administration law, we certify financial performance and financial management systems, and over a period of time we determine compliance with those financial management systems, which are the rules by which you govern your financial affairs.

This act does not go as far as our standards go in many different areas. If I can refer you to the schedule—page 4 of the chart—you can see where, in our particular case, we're not just looking at the salaries of the chief, we're looking at related families and contracts and those kinds of things. These are the kinds of rules and provisions that are consistent in what I will refer to as the commercial marketplace. If you're a part of a corporation, these are the kinds of rules you need to be governed by.

In our view, it doesn't go further. Where we're different is that we believe—as has been expressed by some of the other individuals here today—these should be measures brought forward by the community under their own laws. That's what the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act contemplates.

[Shayla Point, Senior Manager, Legal and Corporate Services, First Nations Financial Management Board]

If I could just add, in my view, the difference between Bill C-27 and the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act is simply that a first nation that chooses to participate with the legislation does so by requesting to be scheduled, as Mr. Calla has indicated. This is entirely optional legislation.

We are working with several first nations. There are 633 first nations in Canada, and 98 of them have requested to be scheduled to this legislation, so it is an option that many of the first nations wish to proceed with. But Bill C-27 would apply to all first nations without having first nations wanting to make this governance decision on their own. I point that out as a major threshold difference between the two.

I want to draw your attention to the chart. I created it, so I can understand it, but for you, the first column here, Bill C-27, simply sets out every provision in Bill C-27. I endeavoured to take a look at all the standards we have created.

We have standards for the Financial Administration Act, standards for the financial management system, and we have a set of documents that are available on our website. I have looked at the specific standards from our documentation and tried to link them to what Bill C-27 is asking for. That's what the first column is: what Bill C-27 requires. Column two shows where FMB requires similar objectives for legislation.

Of course, they are not going to be identical, and as Mr. Calla pointed out, there are instances where our standards go further than what is required in Bill C-27 There are also instances where our standards do not go as far as Bill C-27.

Mr. Calla pointed out remuneration. On my chart, on page 7 under the schedule of remuneration, I've referenced certain standards for you to look at and consider later. This is where we go further. Where we don't go as far, for example, is with respect to disclosure and publication of documents on the first nations Internet site. Our standards do not require publication of these documents on the Internet site. So there are several differences where FMB standards go further and some where they don't go as far.

I invite you to look at this chart. I put considerable effort into aligning these two pieces of legislation and our FMB standards.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you for your explanations.

My next question is for either one of you, or whoever feels he can best answer the question.

Would you like to see Bill C-27 amended in any way? Are there any marked improvements which should be brought to the attention of committee members?

[Harold Calla]

We don't have enough time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Unfortunately, that's probably the case, seeing that Mr. Genest-Jourdain's time has expired. He did have an important question, but a lengthy question, so I'm certain he'd be interested in getting feedback in another round of questioning.

I'll turn now to Mr. Wilks for the next seven minutes.