Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2013

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panel today. My questions will be focused to Paul and Sharon, I believe.

I want to put a bit of context on this. We have been up to Yellowknife. We have spent a great deal of time here at committee working on a three-part piece of legislation that I think.... As I look down the list of quotes, I hear “streamlining”, “immediately”, “highest environmental standards”, “clarity”, and “certainty”, particularly in the case of the Northwest Territories.

It's not an easy job. I'm sure most of you would agree that we're dealing with three levels of government—first nations government, the territorial governments, the federal government—as well as specific interests of the private sector mining companies and their important organizations that serve them well to bring continuity to a lot of development and implementation issues for the industry as a whole. It's an incredible challenge.

Here at committee we have this legislation looking at a couple of dozen proposed amendments. It looks easy on the face of it, until you come to terms with the fact that a couple of these parts of the legislation, particularly in the case of the Northwest Territories, will be effectively mirrored by their respective territories—in the instance of the Northwest Territories, under devolution. It's not an easy job to deal with those amendments. That's an important piece that I want to put out there first.

Paul, you mentioned some funding issues. I think you said generally that human resources was a piece of it. Are there a couple of very specific funding requirements, key areas, that you've identified that perhaps need to be considered for more support?

[Paul Quassa]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly under the new legislation there's a requirement to use different languages—

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

For translation.

[Paul Quassa]

—to ensure that we follow translations: French, Inuktitut, Inuinnaqtun, English. That will have a higher cost in our operations. Certainly we do need more resources in terms of human resources.

The other one, of course, is the public registry. Again, that calls for all languages to be used for our public registry.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

That would be online, Paul, as I understand it, in addition to the costs of the technical component.

[Paul Quassa]

Yes, it would be online, etc. Certainly I think Sharon, our executive director, can give you a little bit more detail as to what cost implications that will have.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you for that.

Sharon, did you want to just chime in briefly there on that?

[Sharon Ehaloak]

Yes, thank you.

The commission is critically underfunded, and this is something that should be known by this committee.

To give you a bit of the background, in the absence of our implementation contract, we're coming into our next 10 years. This has been a 10-year period without a contract. Since 1993, the commission has had a FDDIPI increase. We struggle currently with our level of funding to implement our obligations under the land claims agreement with the mandate of article 11.

This legislation brings new obligations that are outside of the NLCA, the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. First and foremost is the public registry; the commission will be obligated to do that. We proposed to government back in 2010, and all our partners, a proposal for an online public registry—not a Cadillac model, but something that would work and provide the commission with adequate systems to be able to respond to the additional applications that will be coming to us. We will require language obligations with that registry, and with this bill, that will be significant. For us to provide one word in English, it's a $2 cost to the commission as the cost of translation.

In our organizational capacity, currently we have left positions vacant simply to meet our current needs. We will not be able to enact this legislation without additional funding. There's just no question about it.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Sharon.

I just have a couple of minutes, and I wanted to drill down—no pun intended—on the specific requirements related to fairness.

Just looking at the NIRB and NPC relationship in terms of roles and responsibilities, this bill clarifies the roles and responsibilities for the NIRB and NPC respectively, as well as creating, from my understanding and reading of it, an ability to have greater cooperation between them.

Do you agree with that statement, Paul? Do you feel that this will allow the board and the commission to become more effective and more efficient?

[Sharon Ehaloak]

I'll answer that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I believe that right now the NIRB, the water board, and the commission have an effective working relationship. The identification of roles and responsibilities and the one-window approach is the key here of how a proponent enters into the system. Streamlining and having clarity for all proponents and landowners is the critical piece here in this legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

We'll now turn to Jonathan Genest-Jourdain.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Gratton, in recent months, representatives from your organization have come to my office a few times. We had some good interactions and good discussions mainly about the social and environmental aspects of mining in most places in Canada.

I have also read your documentation, which I have here this morning, and a number of points relate to information specific to the social and environmental impact. I wanted to discuss and dissect it all with you, knowing full well that you are francophone and that you understand what I'm saying. So you are able to follow the discussion.

Basically, Mr. Gratton, I see here that "mine development brings critical economic and social benefits," particularly by "enhancing Nunavut's education and social development programs," and contributes "to improving the quality of life for Nunavummiut."

I have a question, just to set the tone. In your presentation, you said that 38% of employees at the Meadowbank gold mine are Inuit. Now, could you explain the discrepancy between the representation of Inuit in Nunavut and their representation in employment in this area of the industry?

Along the same lines, you also indicate in your documentation that there is "support for health care, education and sports facilities." My question has to do with the health care facilities. I also addressed this point with your representatives. What is your position and what measures do you plan to take—in the fast approaching future—to make up for the social impact of the presence and increase of industrial activities in a given sector?

One of the things I'm thinking about is dependence on hard drugs, which correlates with this statement and presence of the industry. It's what we are seeing in the northern regions, particularly in my own region. We see a significant new crop of cases of toxic psychosis and overdose. We are seeing a high proportion of dependence on hard drugs in individuals who are hired and who, from one day to the next, have access to significant financial means. It is important to know that this job in the industry sometimes pays very high wages.

I have another question, this time about education facilities. Is it possible to say whether the efforts made will first and foremost be aimed at establishing educational programs that will serve the purposes of the industry? Will this instead educate the population at large so that it can obtain a minimum level of education, such as a high school or college diploma? Or are these programs simply designed to serve the purposes of the industry?

Thank you.

[Pierre Gratton]

First of all, I have a French name, but I am anglophone. However, I will manage.

I did not entirely understand the first question. You want to know why it's only 38%?

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

If we consider that most, if not all, of the population is Inuit in that region, why is it only 38%?

I would also like know whether these people have key positions in management and administration, or whether they are just labourers.

[Pierre Gratton]

First of all, to work in the mining industry, you generally need to have at least finished high school. I know that in the case of the Meadowbank mine, steps have been taken to make it easier for aboriginals to work in the mines. It has only been three years, but I know that there has been some progress. Aboriginals are slowly climbing the ranks in mining activities. But it is true that the positions generally offered are entry-level jobs. However, there are people at the Meadowbank mine who have higher positions because they had the training required.

I also know that, aside from the Meadowbank mine, there are a number of examples across the country where mines are contributing to the training and education of aboriginals in the region. There are several examples, and some very good ones, in the Northwest Territories and in British Columbia, which I know well, of partnerships between the industry, the aboriginal communities, the schools, and the federal, provincial and territorial governments. There is cooperation in training the workforce to work in the mining industry, either directly or indirectly. It includes an excellent example that I know well—I think Mr. Bevington knows it well, too—and that is the Mine Training Society in the Northwest Territories. It isn't just training for the jobs, but general training. These programs help aboriginals finish high school and continue their studies in technical fields, among others, to broaden their opportunities for working in the mining industry.

In the Northwest Territories, with the development in the diamond industry, there has been an extraordinary increase in aboriginal involvement at the university level, in just the past 15 years alone.

I admit that it hasn't always necessarily been the case, but the mining industry is now very much involved in the communities it is in. In the aboriginal communities especially, this industry can contribute greatly to improving their quality of life, their education and their skill to be involved in our industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gratton.

We'll turn now to Mr. Seeback for five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Nadim, you talked about an environment of uncertainty and you're drawing a correlation between uncertainty with respect to a decline in mineral exploration. Can you expand on that a little and explain how the uncertainty affects investment in opening a mine—not just in exploration, but in other things, moving through feasibility and development?

[Nadim Kara]

Thanks for the question.

I think there are few dimensions here. Maybe I'll speak to the impact of uncertainty on exploration and perhaps Rick and Pierre can talk about the impact of uncertainty on mine development.

The first point is that when you invest scarce resources in an exploration project, your probability of success is fairly low, so security of mineral tenure becomes a critical component of why you'd be willing to make that initial investment and how you can convince investors to finance you, because the junior exploration sector, in contrast to the mining sector, doesn't generate revenue. We're completely dependent upon financing, primarily from the stock exchange, so to convince investors to give us some money to do some geochemistry or geophysics in Nunavut or NWT, we need to be able to tell them that if we find something, we will be able to take that project right through to the mine development stage.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

It's to be able to say what happens with certainty in the next stages.

[Nadim Kara]

Yes, exactly. The security of mineral tenure at the exploration stage becomes the critical precondition for the financing that generates that high-risk investment.

When you work in an area where you have unsettled land claims or massive interim land withdrawals, such as in the Dehcho area and the Akaitcho area, exploration companies are going to be less likely to invest there, all other things being equal, than in an area where there's a settled land claim, where there's a land use plan, and where the communities are on board and have been engaged by a planning commission to identify their cultural sites of significance, their hunting and gathering practices, and so on.

In the NWT and areas where there isn't that kind of certainty—now I'm talking about land claims—as an explorer, I would choose another jurisdiction with similar geology. From the exploration side, that kind of uncertainty in the NWT is not helpful.

On the regulatory side, when you strike something in your drilling and you think you have something good, but it's going to take 10 or 15 years to get through to the mining side of it, again, all other things being equal, you're going to choose a different jurisdiction. I mean, I hear the capacity issue, and certainly our industry supports more capacity, but that's the exploration dimension.

Maybe I'll let Rick—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I only ended up with five minutes, so I'm just going to quickly say this.

[Nadim Kara]

Okay.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I think the NWT Surface Rights Board Act is going to address a number of the concerns you're raising. Would you agree with that statement?

[Nadim Kara]

We would.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's great.

Rick, if you and Pierre want to throw in on this, go ahead, but in the little bit of time I have left I'll also open it up if you want to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised about your amendments. You can pick and choose which question you'd like to answer. I've given you multiple choice.