Evidence of meeting #59 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was public.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paula Isaak  Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Janice Traynor  Environmental Policy Analyst, Environmental Policies and Studies, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Tom Isaac  Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice
Todd Keesey  Policy Analyst, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, we're going to call this meeting to order. This is the 59th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

We are pleased to have the departmental officials with us this morning for the first questions. Obviously, they will have an opening statement, and then we'll have some questions as they relate to Bill C-47.

Colleagues, I know there are a number of questions to start us out. Then we will proceed to clause-by-clause study. Our officials will be staying here with us through this process. We appreciate that, and thank them for being here to assist us in this endeavour of doing the clause-by-clause study.

I'll turn it over to our officials for their opening statement. Then we'll proceed with questions and move on from there.

8:50 a.m.

Paula Isaak Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

My name is Paula Isaak, and I am the director general of the natural resources and environment branch of the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. With me today are members of the team: Janice Traynor, Todd Keesey, and our legal counsel, Tom Isaac.

As you know, Bill C-47, the northern jobs and growth act includes part 1, the Nunavut planning and project assessment act, which responds to our government's obligations under the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement of 1993, and part 2, the Northwest Territories surface rights board act, which fulfills our obligations under the Gwich’in Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement and the Sahtu Dene and Métis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement in the Northwest Territories. Both of these proposed acts were developed in consultation with the relevant aboriginal groups of the two territories in accordance with our legal obligation under the land claim agreements.

Over the past few weeks the committee has heard testimony and received submissions from a number of witnesses on Bill C-47. Given the nature and scope of the comments and recommendations received by the committee, it's conceivable that some may give rise to some questions, or may require additional context to be fully understood.

If that is the case, Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I will be pleased to respond and clarify any outstanding questions.

If I may, I would like first to reiterate a couple of rather important points with respect to the development of both parts of Bill C-47 and the consultation efforts in each case.

With respect to the Nunavut planning and project assessment act, our commitment to close consultation resulted in a unique co-development approach where the drafting of the bill was guided by a tripartite Nunavut legislative working group. Canada, the Government of Nunavut, and the Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, or NTI, were members of the working group. They were assisted in an advisory capacity by the Nunavut Planning Commission and the Nunavut Impact Review Board.

Since 2002 the working group, guided by the provisions of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement and aided by the counsel of its advisers, resolved questions of policy and language, and crafted the bill which is before the committee today. This unique partnership confirmed our commitment to consult closely with Inuit, but our consultative efforts extended beyond the working group once a legislative proposal was completed.

The proposal was circulated widely across Nunavut and in neighbouring jurisdictions. Departmental officials travelled to no fewer than 10 communities in Nunavut to talk to people about the proposal. Industry was also engaged over the course of the last three years, and their insights and suggestions resulted in several improvements to the bill.

With respect to part 2 of the bill, the Northwest Territories surface rights board act fulfills the Government of Canada's obligations under the Gwich’in Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement and the Sahtu Dene and Métis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement. Both agreements refer specifically to the need for a surface rights board.

The establishment of the board is also consistent with the Inuvialuit Final Agreement and the Tlicho Agreement, the other two comprehensive land claim agreements in the Northwest Territories.

The Tlicho Agreement allows for the establishment of a surface rights board. The Inuvialuit Final Agreement specifies that any interim measures related to access across Inuvialuit lands to reach adjacent lands will be replaced when a law of general application such as this bill is enacted.

Obviously, our duty to consult fully on such a legislative undertaking was paramount, and our consultation efforts spanned the entire two-year period the bill was in development.

To fulfill our obligations, three successive draft legislative proposals were distributed which were reviewed by 13 aboriginal groups and governments in the Northwest Territories and adjacent jurisdictions, the Government of the Northwest Territories, and industry associations, at which time written comments were solicited.

These reviews were followed by consultation sessions primarily in the regional centres of Yellowknife and Inuvik to explain the changes made from one draft of the initiative to the next, and to discuss potential improvements to the legislative proposal, including any accommodation measures.

The written comments received and views shared during consultation sessions from aboriginal groups and governments were reviewed and taken into consideration in the preparation of subsequent drafts of the proposed legislation. All parties who provided feedback received written responses to their comments indicating what accommodation measures had been included in the draft proposal, or the reasons that accommodation measures were not or could not be included.

Funding assistance was also made available to all aboriginal groups and governments throughout the consultation process and could be used for the preparation of written representations, attending consultation sessions, and for legal counsel or consultants to assist in reviewing the more technical aspects of the legislative proposals.

In summary, we have met the crown's obligations under settled land claims agreements and in common law to engage in meaningful dialogue with aboriginal organizations, governments, and other stakeholders who participate, have an interest in, or may be impacted by the regulatory regime in Canada's north.

In addition, I would reiterate that this bill is intended to implement land claims. In our view, and in the view of the Department of Justice, both parts of Bill C-47 are consistent with those respective agreements, subject of course to the four amendments that Canada and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated have agreed to make to the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement prior to the coming into force of the Nunavut planning and project assessment act.

At this point, we thank you for the opportunity to appear today to assist the committee in its review of Bill C-47. My colleagues and I would be pleased to respond to any questions that members may have about the bill.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thanks, Ms. Isaak. We appreciate that very much.

We'll now turn to Mr. Bevington for seven minutes.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

Over the past while, we've received many proposals for amendments to this bill. Most of the presenters who have come forward have had issues with the bill.

In the case of Nunavut, there were a number of very pronounced amendments that were put forward. In the case of the Northwest Territories, there were concerns that were raised around the consultation process, especially in the areas of unsettled claims and the legitimacy of this process on unsettled lands, on lands that were withdrawn, and the lands that had no formal claim agreements in place. A number of issues have been raised.

It was interesting that at the last meeting with the Nunavut Planning Commission, their response to this bill was that without proper funding they would likely soon be in contravention.

Can you explain how this government is planning to deal with the changes that are required for that part of the Nunavut regulatory process, the land use plan, to ensure they can meet the requirements that are laid out in this bill?

8:55 a.m.

Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paula Isaak

Funding for the boards that are laid out in Nunavut are part of the implementation contract in the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. The funding will be negotiated as part of that implementation contract, to allow for appropriate funding for the boards to implement their activities under this legislation.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

In all the discussions with Nunavut, were there any requests made prior to this bill being drafted for participant funding to be included as part of the legislation?

8:55 a.m.

Janice Traynor Environmental Policy Analyst, Environmental Policies and Studies, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Yes, there was discussion of that issue at the working group table. The members of the working group, NTI, GN, and NIRB and NPC, discussed whether participant funding should be included in the bill. In the end, it came down to providing a regulation-making authority for participant funding, and that's what you see in the bill today.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Could you explain that in greater detail? The regulation—

8:55 a.m.

Environmental Policy Analyst, Environmental Policies and Studies, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Janice Traynor

There's an ability to make a regulation to establish a participant funding program that's provided in part 1 of the bill.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Would that require an order in council?

8:55 a.m.

Tom Isaac Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice

It's done by a regulation by the Governor in Council. They would pass a regulation to do that.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

At the Nunavut level?

8:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice

Tom Isaac

No, at the federal level.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Okay, so it requires the consent of the government to do this.

8:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice

Tom Isaac

That's right, yes.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

So there's really no guarantee of this happening.

8:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice

Tom Isaac

No, there's no commitment of that, that it has to take place.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

So in reality, this is not part of the bill?

8:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocuter, Department of Justice

Tom Isaac

Just the regulation-making authority is what's part of the bill.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Okay.

When it comes to the Northwest Territories surface rights board act, could you describe how this process will work without any discretion on the part of the board to say no to access?

There are cases that have come up in the Northwest Territories where access is an important issue culturally on particular segments of land that exist in the Northwest Territories. The board will have no authority to deny access. Is that correct? The situation such as what occurred in Drybones Bay.... Are you familiar with the dispute that occurred over Drybones Bay? In the case of this act that dispute would not have occurred at all; the access would have been granted.

9 a.m.

Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paula Isaak

The act provides for the board to resolve disputes where an access right already exists. Where an access right is granted through, say, the provision of a mineral right, the board has the ability to resolve disputes where the parties have not been able to negotiate access to that right. It does not have the ability to deny the access. It has the ability to set the terms and conditions or provide for compensation.

9 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

That project would not have been denied access?

9 a.m.

Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paula Isaak

The board could not deny access for that kind of project.

9 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Is that a similar situation that exists in all surface rights boards across the country?

9 a.m.

Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paula Isaak

I can't speak for all of them, but my understanding is there are similar types of arrangements in other surface rights boards across the country.