Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2013

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Just a second, Minister.

We need a commitment in terms of attitude. Is there a gap or not in the per student funding per year of first nations children on reserve compared to children in the provincial systems? Only a third of first nations youth are finishing high school. It is going to require a commitment. Do you or do you not believe there is a gap in the funding per student? Will you table what you've got?

The chiefs and councils are saying this is very different. Folding in the money the department spends to hand it out, or folding in what the bands have to pay to send the kids to off-reserve schools isn't working in the communities where they know they've got no money for language and culture. They've got no money to pay the teachers properly. They've got no money for pensions.

Would you admit to this committee today that there is a gap in funding for first nations children attending school on reserve?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I read the report of the national panel, and they expressly warned us not to look at per student spending as the barometer of a successful initiative.

Right now, with the information I have, the Government of Canada invests approximately $1.5 billion in first nation education for about 117,500 students.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay. Let's go over the estimates—-

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You asked the question, let me answer it. It compares to the level of spending that is being invested at the provincial level.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay.

In the supplementary estimates it says that you're increasing income assistance by $1.4 million, but in the main estimates you're cutting it by $40.4 million, as my colleague said.

You're before the courts. The department spent $3 million trying to throw out the Cindy Blackstock case. You're spending money chasing her around. When more kids are in care now because their parents can't afford to look after them—this is about poverty—how can you defend cutting $40.4 million in income assistance programs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Bennett, Minister, we're over time now on this, but if you'd like to give a short answer, Minister, we'll give you the opportunity to do that.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

If I were political, my short answer would be, are you advocating that we not defend Canada in these actions and proceedings that are being taken against Canada? You refer to the $3 million cost, but I think the government has a responsibility on behalf of all taxpayers to present Canada's position and then respect the rule of law in the decisions that are made.

With regard to the specific $40 million—-

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Then you'd only have $37 million—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, that was a short answer.

We'll turn now to Mr. Boughen, for the next seven minutes.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Chair,

Minister and officials, let me add my welcome to that of my colleagues for taking time to join us this morning. We appreciate that. We enjoy the opportunity to dialogue and hear your position on various issues.

One of those issues that I would like to ask you about is education. I know it's our government's goal to establish the structures and standards to support strong and accountable education systems on reserve, all of which will set the stage for more positive education outcomes for first nations children and youth as they pursue their educational goals. Can you share with us how much the government currently invests in K to 12 education and how this spending supports that goal?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You're really piggybacking on the question that was raised by Ms. Bennett.

In 2010-11, the Government of Canada provided, as I told her, $1.5 billion to support approximately 117,500 elementary and secondary first nations students who ordinarily live on reserve and go to school on or off reserve. Approximately 60% of those students attended band-operated schools across Canada, while 36% attended provincial schools, and 4% attended federal and private schools. An additional $304 million was provided to first nations for the construction and maintenance of education facilities on reserve. In 2010-11, the Government of Canada spent $13,524 per full-time-equivalent student, including funding for basic education services, as well as a range of targeted programs.

What I want to stress is the government's commitment in budget 2012 to work with first nations to develop this new legislation and to explore mechanisms to ensure stable, predictable, and sustainable funding for first nations elementary and secondary education. This is an answer to the call by first nations, the Senate committee, the Auditor General, and stakeholders in the aboriginal communities of Canada.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Minister, you mentioned the development of education legislation in your previous response. What does the government hope to achieve with this new legislation? Can you tell us how this will improve educational outcomes for first nations?

I know you haven't had much time on this file, Minister, so I'll apologize for asking specific questions, but we don't have the chance to meet with you very often.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I understand.

What the government wants to do is work with first nations partners to put in place educational legislation that can provide the modern framework they need to build standards and structures, strengthen governance and accountability, and provide the mechanism for stable, predictable, and sustainable funding. It's not putting the cart before the horse. Putting in place a good, legal legislative framework will allow for that stable and predictable and sustainable funding, which will ensure that the graduation rates go up, and that these kids, the youth in all the aboriginal communities, become full participants in our economy and the social development of their own communities. It happens through education. That's why this is so important. I would hope that we would not play politics with such a critical issue for first nations across Canada.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I certainly agree with that.

Coming back to Ms. Crowder's question, can you share with us the format of the meetings that have occurred with departmental officials and folks on reserve in looking at restructuring the education act?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

As you know, I don't have a lot of hours behind me since my swearing in. My understanding—and I will be corrected by Mr. Wernick if I'm wrong—is that we have already had two of these consultations and that participation has been excellent. Great ideas, valuable comments have been put forward. As I indicated to Ms. Crowder, we're going to have these consultations in certain cities. For the parents of these aboriginal kids and first nations, there is a process through the website, through our regional offices, where they can offer their views about this discussion guide. As I said, it's not limited to what is there. What we are trying to do is bring the stakeholders together so that we can, in the best way possible, ensure that we have a piece of legislation that will bring about results. That's our main concern.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We'll turn now to Mr. Genest-Jourdain for five minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Hello, Mr. Minister.

I have a few questions for you, but if we should run into time restraints, I would like to have your answers in writing.

I would like to begin with the First Nations Land Management Act.

In 2012, our committee went to Mashteuiatsh, in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region. We were able to see the limitations of and flaws in the First Nations Land Management Act, particularly in terms of transferring environmental responsibility and liabilities to the communities that sign the agreement set out in the act.

Mr. Minister, I would like to know what the annual budget is for the First Nations Land Management Act, not including the funds allocated in the 2011 budget. In addition, I would like to know if additional funds will be invested in the rehabilitation and environmental assessments of lands belonging to communities that sign the agreement set out in the First Nations Land Management Act.

I also have a quick question about residential schools. Has the department estimated the financial and human resources that will be required in order to hand over to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada all of the relevant documents held by Library and Archives Canada? How much of an increase might be needed to meet that obligation?

I would also like to ask about first nations infrastructure, since the infrastructure in many communities is insufficient and it is a real problem in many communities. Does your department intend to implement other targeted funding programs to help communities that still need help developing their infrastructure?

Could you provide an explanation and some details about those topics?

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Since I am not a machine, I would prefer to answer each and every one of your questions in writing. I cannot honestly say that I am able, at this point in time, to reply to each of them off the top of my head.

However, as for the question about documents at Library and Archives Canada, I would like to inform the committee that, as I said during my opening remarks, this issue is currently before the courts. We will fully meet our obligations, as set out in the agreement that was signed and that the court is overseeing.

If I remember correctly, some 1.3 million documents have been submitted by various departments so far. Library and Archives Canada has provided 1.3 or 1.4 million documents. And some 22 departments have contributed to those 1.3 million documents. I am referring to documents at Library and Archives Canada. Discussions are on-going and, as you know, the court made a ruling. But other circumstances may have to be set out in detail to ensure that the Commission can fulfill its mandate.

Rest assured that the most important thing is that the goals of the agreement are met. We are confident that the resources and means are in place to ensure that Canada, the government and Canadians respect the agreement signed before the court.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have 20 seconds.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Since you have brought experts with you this morning, perhaps some of them might be able to talk about today's topic of first nations land management? This issue has been debated at length. We have talked about it in detail. Perhaps the experts with you this morning could speak to that.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do you have anything to add?

[Michael Wernick, Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

I can clarify all of that in a written response.

I will say that we have invested the resources needed to increase the number of participating communities. As you know, we added 18 communities a year ago and another eight or nine recently. Resources are in place to implement this act in the communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We'll turn now to Mr. Clarke for the next five minutes.