Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Minister, you keep giving us these big numbers and you fail to acknowledge that while over the past six years this program received an average of $1.2 billion annually in new funding, that's actually a cut of approximately $345 million per year from the 2012 levels, and $500 million over the six-year average. I want to know how, instead of addressing the gap that already exists, you are able to claim that the resources will be there to deal with these new responsibilities, instead of tying up first nations with their compliance, and instead of actually building the infrastructure that they require.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You may recall that one of the key findings of the national assessment of first nations water and waste water systems was that the majority of the risk identified in high-risk systems relates to the issue of capacity, with only 30% relating to design risk and infrastructure issues. What we have done...and I hate to go back to this strategy, but it is a comprehensive strategy that is addressing the issue of capacity development, is making continued investments in infrastructure, and is making the development of a clear regulatory framework essential. This is the strategy. Investments are taking place. The 2012 budget contained a commitment to invest $338 million, I think, over two years into infrastructure for waste water and drinking water systems—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

It involves taking out a few tanks.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

—which I believe is a substantial investment—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

No.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

—given the fiscal situation that all Canadians face. It's not as though I can just go and pick money off a tree. These are taxpayers' funds invested strategically to protect the health and safety of first nations members living on reserve in Canada.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Minister, the numbers speak for themselves. There's actually a cut of $345 million per year from the 2012 funding levels and $500 million over the six-year average. My concern is that the capacity—and I hope, Minister, you'll listen to some of the chiefs, who we hope will come to the hearings on this. Taking a provincial approach to some of the standards is very worrying to a number of the first nations chiefs, because the training and the testing sometimes eliminate people who've been running these plants for 20 years. A lot of people we have talked to would prefer a system run and delivered by first nations, so I hope you'll listen to that.

The real question for us here in the House of Commons is whether this is being brought in through the Senate so that there can't be any funding appropriation. Given the recommendations of the expert panel about the need to deal with capacity, we're asking why you decided to introduce this bill in the Senate, where it is subject to increased restrictions on incorporating the much needed resources in order to actually provide safe drinking water to first nations.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

On the first point you made, of course we will listen to the chiefs who will come to testify before the committee. Our commitment is clear in the preamble of the bill, that these regulations will be developed in cooperation with first nations.

You talked about tenders, municipalities and the impact. I would point to paragraph 5(1)(b). Subclause 5(1) says, “Regulations made under section 4 may”:

(b) confer on any person or body any legislative, administrative, judicial or other power that the Governor in Council considers necessary to effectively regulate drinking water systems and waste water systems;

This bill is enabling legislation allowing the implementation and the development of regulations to ensure the health and safety of first nation members. This will not be done overnight. The capacity that you refer to has to be in place. Of course the infrastructure has to be in place in order to meet whatever regulated standards will be adopted. This will take place, but it cannot be done overnight. The legislation needs to be in place for these regulatory developments to take place.

It's not as if there were no investments in infrastructure or in the training of the people. For example, you referred to people who have been there for 20 years. I was in Kashechewan about a month and a half ago. It's a brand-new system, but unfortunately, because of the lack of training of the operators, they had a loss there. We have to invest a lot of dollars to correct this. That's why the training program which is taking place right now is having good results. We have a lot more operators who are qualified and certified, which helps protect those important investments that first nations themselves make in their own systems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll turn now to Mr. Boughen for the next seven minutes.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to you, Minister, and to your officials for taking time out of your busy schedules to meet with us. We certainly appreciate it.

Minister, Bill S-8, the Safe Drinking Water for First Nations Act, is crucial to ensuring that first nations have the same health and safety protections concerning drinking water and waste water treatment that are currently in place for other Canadians. Can you expand on this? I know you touched on it in your remarks, but will first nations be involved in the development and implementation of the regulations?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Absolutely the answer is yes. As the preamble of the bill clearly establishes, we will work with first nations and other stakeholders to develop these regulations and standards on a region-by-region basis. Canada is far and wide, and we know that the regional situation is particular to different parts of the country. We recognize that first nations communities face unique challenges wherever they are in the country, and their ability to meet federal regulatory requirements may vary from province to province, territory to territory, and also region to region within provinces.

When we think about those isolated communities, we realize that they are a different bird from being on the outskirts of Vancouver or Edmonton. We will work with first nations to develop these regulations. As I said earlier, it will take time, but they will be implemented over a number of years in full cooperation with first nations and stakeholders, keeping in mind always that the prime concern is the health and safety of first nations community members.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Since 2006 the government has invested approximately $3 billion in waste water infrastructure to support first nation communities. On January 13, 2013, the former minister announced $330.8 million over two years to sustain progress made to build and renovate water and waste water infrastructure, and to support the development of a long-term strategy to improve water quality in first nation communities. The government will continue to provide funding for the improvement of infrastructure and capacity related to drinking water and waste water services on first nations land.

Minister, what other steps has this government taken in order to be ready for a regulatory regime for first nations infrastructure?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You raise an important question. I referred to the national assessment which was undertaken between July 2009 and spring 2011. The results were released in July 2011. Independent engineers inspected throughout the country 1,300 drinking water and waste water systems, more than 800 wells, and 1,900 septic fields. It was the most rigorous, comprehensive, and independent assessment of its kind, surveying 97% of drinking water and waste water systems on first nations lands.

Following the release of the assessment results, we committed, of course, to take concrete action to support first nations communities in improving access to safe, clean, and reliable drinking water. On-reserve water and waste water issues have been identified as a priority. The comprehensive strategy I referred to earlier was developed on the three pillars I mentioned.

It is important to realize that with the money that was invested and appropriated for these purposes, work commenced in 2011 to address 47 water systems identified as both high design and high overall risk. This involved the design, building, and renovating or expansion of these systems, thereby benefiting some 24,000 individuals living on reserve; strengthening the annual inspection process to improve the consistency across the country, and ensuring that first nations and the department have accurate information to support decision-making regarding water and waste water systems; and also committing $330 million over two years through economic action plan 2012 to help sustain progress made to build and renovate water infrastructure on reserves.

As I said earlier, by 2014 we will have invested approximately $3 billion to support delivery of water and waste water services in first nations communities, which I think is a good indication of our commitment to ensure that they are provided with the capacity to deliver to their community members.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I have a quick one-minute question, Minister.

Bill S-8 would establish enforceable standards and protocols for water and waste water management. While provinces and territories each have their own safe water standards, there are currently no legally enforceable standards for first nations communities. How long will it take for regulations to be in place?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

This will be developed over a period of time. It will take time to develop and implement regulations across Canada. That's why the regulations will be phased in to ensure there is adequate time for the government and first nations to bring their drinking water and waste water infrastructure and operating capacity to the levels required to conform with these new regulations.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

We'll now turn to Monsieur Genest-Jourdain for the next five minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good morning, Minister.

The involvement of first nations people is essential to the implementation of the bill before us, but the consultation campaign launched with the same theme in 2009—an expensive Canada-wide campaign—attracted only 544 participants. With that in mind, I would like to know how you will ensure that first nations people will really participate in the implementation of this bill.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Of course, as my opening remarks indicate, we will continue to work with first nations leaders across the country on developing regulations to provide guidance in the area of water distribution in first nation communities. I don't think the system requires the participation of all community members. The important thing is for the leaders of various first nation communities across the country to be involved in the process. They and other system stakeholders will be involved.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Minister, I would now like to talk about clause 3 of the bill. That provision derogates from the treaty rights of aboriginal peoples of Canada, while complying with the Constitution and to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of drinking water on first nations lands.

Could you tell us in what specific cases aboriginal treaty rights could be derogated from?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I think that we are the only country in the world where aboriginal rights and treaty rights are protected by the Constitution. We must never lose sight of that.

Clause 3 aims to ensure that no regulations can violate those treaty rights or aboriginal rights, and that those rights will always have precedence, unless, of course, the health of first nations people is compromised.

I will leave the discussions on hypothetical situations to others. What the committee should know is that this non-derogation provision under clause 3 of the bill is almost identical to what we covered in our impartial discussions with first nations.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

One and a half minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Okay.

Minister, I was looking at the legislative summary of Bill S-8, which provides for the possibility of implementing regulations that would require permits to be obtained as a condition of engaging in any activity on first nations lands that could affect the quality of drinking water.

I would like to know what you think about that. Can the same reasoning be applied to first nations traditional territories, considering that the industrial activities carried out on those territories often involve reaching groundwater and lead to a noticeable drop in the quality of drinking water on Indian reserves?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

The bill before the committee basically aims to target first nations reserve lands. The bill is limited to its objective—which consists in ensuring that those regulations apply to water source protection, clean water delivery and wastewater treatment on reserves, and not off reserve.