Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2013

[Robert Reiter]

I have one closing comment, and it's about the question you posed to the minister about the solution to this impasse we face.

We've been waiting for two years. It's a drain on the community, which was poised to implement this right away. The courts have given us two major cases which, in the context of preserving aboriginal rights when third parties are developing their lands, work fine. Those were the Haida and Taku cases at the Supreme Court level. Unfortunately, first nations that are in the initial stages of negotiations are using those cases to prevent closing tables from completing their treaties. That is the main impediment to doing treaties as other first nations at this point in time.

What I've found at this table and at other tables in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon is that something more than an assertion of a right or interest in an overlap area has to be provided. That would be some sort of proof of claim, at least on a balance of probabilities, in advance of triggering a very long and detailed mediation or arbitration, which is what we're faced with in every one of these treaties that are coming before you now. Sliammon will be next; they'll go through the same process.

A mere assertion of aboriginal title or rights doesn't provide a knock-down argument that a court decision would. None of these are supported by court decisions. The mere assertion is undermining the process. There has to be some validation of those rights before you trigger the process of detailed and costly arbitration or mediation on these overlaps.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Reiter.

We'll turn now to Mr. Strahl, for the next seven minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank my colleagues on this committee. I'm not a regular member of this committee, but the Yale First Nation is in my riding of Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, and I would tell anyone who wants to see one of the most beautiful parts of British Columbia to make their way up to Yale and the Yale First Nation territory. It's a beautiful drive. Fraser Canyon is a beautiful part of our province.

Chief Hope, it's good to see you again. Going forward, I'm sure that you look forward to spending more time in your first nation territory and less time in Ottawa.

I did want to talk to you. You would have read the testimony from the meeting on Tuesday. It's very similar to newspaper articles that have been going around in Chilliwack, Hope, and the Fraser Canyon for a number of months now, where the Stó:lo grand chiefs, while not perhaps endorsing it, have certainly indicated that there's a real threat of physical violence should the Yale treaty be allowed to proceed.

What's your reaction to that sort of provocative language? They've also struck a war council, for instance, and things like that, which we're not used to seeing in first nation to first nation relationships. Could you give your reaction to those comments and let us know what you're planning to do to ensure that your people are safe and that there isn't an unnecessary escalation in your territory?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Thank you, Mark. It's good to see you again.

I should share with the group that I saw Mark at the graduation ceremonies on Saturday in Hope. I was surprised. He was a long way from here, and he was there within 24 hours.

Regarding the violence, I don't appreciate that sort of language. It makes no sense. I don't believe that it will get us anywhere. We can't make progress when somebody makes those kinds of comments.

What I did note in the session here the other day with the Stó:lo is they were saying that they will not, I guess, attack Yale First Nation people. That's the first time I've seen that. I've always assumed that any violence they did would be towards Yale First Nation people, but they finally admitted that no, that's not the case; the violence will be directed at, as far as I could understand it, the Fisheries and Oceans officers. I'm sure they can look after themselves, but....

I'd like to share with the committee what we hope to do starting this year and into the future. We've been working on a map with the RCMP, as well as with the fisheries officers. We've put every fishing site in the area on a GPS map. We've put the trails and the fishing campsites on a GPS map. We've done that so that if there is an emergency or a problem somewhere in the area, we can direct them to the location. We would both know the area, and they could get to the problem or the emergency in a very short period of time.

We're also going to share that map with the Hope search and rescue group, the Yale volunteer fire department, and the ambulance service, so that when there is a problem the appropriate agency could go directly there. The Fraser Canyon is a really wild bit of country. There are no street lights. We only got cellphone service in the canyon this past year. There's very little...well, you're all by yourself at times, way out in the middle of the canyon.

That's what we hope to do. I think that will have a positive effect on the people who come to fish, camp on the land, and enjoy the scenery and the river.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I think the hope is that the heated rhetoric will die down and cooler heads will prevail. There's definitely an opportunity for cooperation there.

You proposed a 10-year renewable agreement for access outside the treaty process. Can you describe some of the high-level ideas you were willing to include in the proposal? What would that look like, and how has that offer been received?

[Chief Norman Hope]

We've written letters to the Stó:lo groups and invited them to take part in a working group that would include both Stó:lo and Yale people who would be knowledgeable about the fishery and knowledgeable about the outlying area, the land. We're willing to work with them and come up with a process whereby they could come onto the future Yale First Nation treaty settlement land. That's an opportunity to deal with this issue, and I hope they come to the table and work through this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Ms. Bennett, we'll now turn to you for the next seven minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much. We were all concerned about the hearing on Tuesday morning as to how we go forward with neighbourliness in terms of the issue of access.

Could you explain again how you think this would work? You've said that only the Yale people would decide where they fish. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans would obviously be there to enforce some of what happens on the river. How does this work? What happens if somebody comes on to the river in Five Mile Creek and you haven't issued permission?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Let me start with a brief outline of the five-mile fishery as the Stó:lo call it. It's not five miles long. It's considerably shorter, but it happens to be near a creek that we call Five Mile Creek. We haven't decided what sort of a permit system we would use. If the people who did not have permission to be there were trying to barge in and remove somebody who had equipment, the people with a permit, with our permission, would have priority, if they conducted themselves in a reasonable manner, keeping the place neat and tidy. In the summertime it's hot in the Fraser Canyon and there's always concern about a forest fire. We're going to be asking people not to have fires right in the middle of the fire season. If they abide by a few simple rules, we see no reason why they should not be allowed to come onto the land.

The other point I don't think everybody's aware of is that not all the fishing area in the canyon will be Yale treaty settlement land. It'll be spotty. There'll be some crown land, and then a piece of Yale treaty settlement land, and so on up into the canyon. I attached a map for you to view. The Stó:lo use many trails and they can get down to the river and not have to cross our land. They can also reach a fishing area with a big, high-powered aluminum boat. They'll have ample opportunity to fish in the area. We have no intention of removing it in any way unless they're out of order in some way.

Does that help?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Obviously you hear from them that their having to get a permit breaches their traditional way of life. Could you explain how we fix these things going forward? There's a picture of a gravesite, and they think they have a history there. We hear what you’re saying about assertion.

If you were going to design a process so the next treaty negotiation doesn't have to go through what you've been through, what would it look like?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Well, I'm glad you brought up the issue of this cemetery. Just this past week, I and some people from my community conducted a ceremony at this graveyard or cemetery in the canyon. The Stó:lo elder wanted to do this before fishing season started. That's just an example of how we're working with the grassroots people.

At least for this treaty, I think that the Stó:lo management has to work with the grassroots people, because what I hear from the grassroots people is that they have no problem with coming to the Yale office and getting some sort of document or permission to enter our land. The actual papers we have show that we worked out an agreement in a reasonable manner. Clearly, the grand chiefs are not talking to the fishers and their extended families. They're not communicating with them, the ones who are on the ground, fishing, which is unfortunate. They seem to be fearmongering. They're saying, “It's not me saying that you're not going to be allowed on the land; it's somebody else.” It's causing fear in the Stó:lo people. They are scared because they think we're going to chase them off, but that's not the case. It would be a very rare situation where we would ask people to leave and it would be because they've been out of line. They're up at the canyon stealing things or selling drugs, or maybe making a fire, which is really dangerous in the middle of the summer. They could burn down a whole territory. That’s one of the main reasons we need an arrangement, so that we can manage the land and look after it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Chief.

We'll go to Mr. Strahl, again.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm hogging all the time from our side today.

You mentioned the young people in your community. I want to congratulate you because you mentioned there were two graduates at the Hope Secondary School graduation. Congratulations to them and to your community. I also want to congratulate Sophie Pierre and the B.C. Treaty Commission for their work on this file and for being here again today as observers.

Something I learned throughout this process is that in the existing reserve system, it's a first nation custom that if another first nation wants to come onto a neighbouring reserve, there is already a protocol. It's considered proper etiquette to check in with the chief.

Am I correct in that understanding?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Yes, that's only right and proper; it's the right thing to do. That is a custom of sorts.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

The issue has been that certain members of the Stó:lo have never recognized even the current reserve under the existing Indian Act.

Am I correct in that?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Yes. The reason at least in part would be that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans gave members of the Stó:lo and other native communities a licence to fish anywhere between the Port Mann Bridge and Sawmill Creek. That's a large area. But they have the opportunity to fish wherever they choose, regardless. They do not have to come to me to get permission to fish in the area.

I want to add that post the effective date, it will require two governments to manage the fishery. The Yale First Nation will govern the land. People have to either camp on the land or cross the Yale treaty settlement land. That would be the Yale First Nation's responsibility. Managing the fish would be the responsibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. They're responsible for fish and fish habitat.

I believe that with some communication and work with the Department of Fisheries, we could set up and manage a very well-run, well-enforced, and well-managed fishery.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

How many band members are in the Yale First Nation, and how many are living on reserve right now?

[Chief Norman Hope]

There are 154 Yale people. We have adopted a few through this process, but it's running pretty close to half and half. Some live in Vancouver, Toronto, and down in Seattle. I'd have to say it's about half at this time.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Could you give us an indication of how your people are feeling about this final step? What are their hopes for the future going forward?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Everybody is excited about this. These are very exciting times for the Yale First Nation. I believe they can see opportunities for the future. We're talking about economic development projects and joint ventures, with the hope of providing employment to some people who have a hard time getting a job. The area has been economically depressed for quite some time. A few jobs would mean a lot to our community.

I've been encouraging them to take some training. There are a lot of training opportunities out there. We hope to, when this comes into place, do joint ventures. With the resources we have, I think we can create jobs, especially in ecotourism.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much. Again, congratulations to you and the entire Yale First Nation.

[Chief Norman Hope]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Strahl. Thank you, Chief.

I just want to note that we do have translation devices if you need them. If you're not good in French, you may need them for our next questioner.

We'll turn to Mr. Genest-Jourdain for the next five minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good day, gentlemen.

Is everything working all right?

[Chief Norman Hope]

Yes.