Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2014

[Colleen Swords, Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you very much.

I can answer the question on hotels first. The total number of evacuees as of November 25 that were evacuated as a result of the 2011 flood is 1,940. There are only 14 of those that are in hotels. Other people are in apartments or staying privately. There's a limited number that are still in hotels.

For the total amount of money estimated so far, we're looking at about $253 million over three years.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Is that to rebuild or is that how much?

[Colleen Swords]

That's for rebuilding is my understanding. My colleague can correct me if I'm wrong.

Some of the houses have to be rebuilt, some of the schools have to be rebuilt, and in some cases there's new land that's being purchased. Where they used to live is being flooded every year and it doesn't make sense to keep building on land that gets flooded every year.

It's a fairly major proposition, but in the long run it will, we hope, prove to be more cost-effective.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

What analysis have you done on the costs? I'm trying to get some sense as to.... Is there something that you could table with us here, or at a later date—I don't know that you would have it right here—with respect to the analysis that's been done for the cost?

[Colleen Swords]

We've been working very closely with the Province of Manitoba on this, as well as with the four first nations that are still affected. I want to make sure that's clear. This is not our analysis alone. There has been a considerable amount of work done.

I'll turn to my colleague, Scott Stevenson, who's the assistant deputy minister responsible for regional operations, who lives and breathes this pretty well every day. He can answer the specific question.

[Scott Stevenson, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Chair, for the question on the amount, the number we've provided is an estimation of Canada's planned cost share. Manitoba also has made an announcement about funds available or that it's providing for the rebuilding of these communities. The more detailed breakdown that we could provide in writing would be able to identify the estimated project costs for the communities that are affected.

I'd also note, though, that the amounts for settlement of outstanding litigation would be numbers that would require some discretion in terms of what is made public on those numbers.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

You figure that could be done within three years with respect to rebuilding?

[Scott Stevenson]

The undertaking the two governments have made is to rebuild the communities within three years. That is an undertaking that was announced I believe last January.

The moneys that are sought in these supplementary estimates are to advance a part of those plans that are laid out over three years. They're subject to the pace of the negotiations with the communities and they reflect the pace at which we can develop the plans and implement them with those communities. They're to re-establish those communities, so the leadership of the communities and the community members have to be engaged in the development of the plans.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I want to continue on with respect to this, because in 2013 the federal government announced changes to its on-reserve emergency management policies, which included single-window funding for emergency costs and stable funding for response and recovery activities.

The reason I bring this up is that certainly it's not just the Manitoba flood. If you look at Kapuskasing, which is in my riding, and some of the other communities.... I'm going to go with Kapuskasing at this point, because there are a lot of evacuees from Kashechewan, I believe, who are currently in Kapuskasing. I know that there has been an enormous amount of work done on that, but it's an ongoing process.

I'm just wondering if you could tell me at this point how much you've actually spent on that particular evacuation; when those people can expect to be returned home; what the plan is to deal with the ongoing flooding issues, both in Kashechewan and in Attawapiskat; and how the department is handling or will handle it. Because a bigger problem is that there is such an overflow that it's creating a lot of stress on a lot of the services in Kapuskasing.

For example, our office has had to deal a lot with birth certificates and different things like that. There seems to be.... There's the income tax, but there's even the food bank. They did a food drive and it's already depleted.

It's quite problematic for the communities themselves, so I'm wondering if you can help me out with this.

[Colleen Swords]

Well, you're absolutely right that it's not only Manitoba that has emergencies on first nation reserves. There are problems with flooding. There are problems with fires in various parts of the country. I know that in 2013 or 2014 we had about 62 emergencies that we were managing across the country, of one magnitude or another. Usually what happens is that we get a lot of support from the province and the first nations themselves in managing the evacuations.

I don't have the answer for you on Kashechewan specifically, but I'm sure we can get that for you pretty quickly.

What we've done is that we were successful in getting some additional funding last year. It was announced in budget 2014. We have about $40 million over five years for mitigation. Mitigation relates largely to things like diking.

I've been in Kashechewan. We had to build up the sides of the river because of flooding there. That was done, but it needs constant repair, so there are additional costs there. I know that we've spent money in Eel River Bar on some flood remediation and on diking that goes on.

We also spend money every year on evacuations. How much is required for evacuation depends on the year. We've been allocating about $19.1 million to help us negotiate agreements with the provinces to work on prevention and be ready for a fast response.

We're doing what we can. It varies from year to year how much is required for emergencies. In a year when there's an extremely expensive number of emergencies, we have the facility of going back to the Treasury Board and asking for additional emergency funds just to manage evacuations. But on the mitigation itself, it's $40 million that was announced in the last year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you for that answer.

We'll turn to Mr. Barlow now for his inaugural question at this committee.

Welcome to our committee, Mr. Barlow.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here, and I appreciate being on this committee. I have five first nation communities in my riding, so this is a very important committee for me, and it's an honour to be included.

Ms. Swords, I'm playing a little bit of catch-up here. I don't know a lot of the issues that were discussed today. You did have in here $3.4 million to meet the devolution agreement in the Northwest Territories.

From speaking with some of my colleagues while preparing for this, I understand this has been a historic agreement. Can you tell me a little bit more about the devolution? What are some of the issues it has addressed in the Northwest Territories? What is some of the new supplementary funding going to be earmarked for?

[Colleen Swords]

Devolution took effect on April 1, 2014. It is significant. Yukon devolution was a few years before, and now we have Northwest Territories devolution. Of course, the next step will be, when can we have devolution for Nunavut?

It's taken place. It's pretty significant. It's very important in terms of the political and economic development for people in the territory. It's certainly proven to be the case in the Yukon that when a government is close to its people and can make decisions, it leads to a lot more successful results, particularly with respect to evolution.

What we transferred in terms of devolution on April 1 was largely management and authority over lands and resources. There are a lot of provincial-like responsibilities relating to water and land licensing that used to be managed down here in our department, and that's now done up in the Northwest Territories.

As a result of that, there will be certain authorities that the Government of the Northwest Territories will have with respect to collecting resource revenues, and it will have greater authority over the decisions on how to make use of that. That allows it to get the best net fiscal benefit out of resource development and look to investments for the future. It's additional resources, and it will have an impact on the transfer payment that's made by the federal government, so NWT will have an additional amount to what it's getting in the transfer payments.

Some people like to say that it is about nation building and about continuing our nation building.

There is a lot of work that was done together with aboriginal groups in the territories. There are a number of aboriginal parties there that have agreed with the government on how to manage resource revenue sharing. It was agreed that 25% of resource revenue sharing will be given to aboriginal groups, and that was in the context of devolution.

They're hoping, and we all hope, that the ultimate impact of devolution will be something in the order of about $20 million in spinoff benefits and that there will be an opportunity for even more development in the future.

We've retained responsibility in the federal government for certain environmental remediation. Federal contaminated sites that were identified before devolution will remain the responsibility of the federal government, and there will still be some. Ones that become known and apparent after devolution will be the responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Those are a few of the impacts. In some respects it sounds as though we've transferred licensing over water and land, but in fact it was significant and was certainly celebrated in the Northwest Territories.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

That takes me to my next question. I know that something of this substance and magnitude probably can't be enacted and completed in a short period of time. You said it came into effect on April 1. What's happened between April 1 and now? What is yet to be done for this to be completed, and how do the funds you're asking for today help bring that to reality?

[Colleen Swords]

Well, you're absolutely right, it did take a lot of work. There are still a few pieces that are being conducted in order to finalize, and hence the amount that appears in the supplementary estimates.

Basically, what we're still working on is that we have to finalize some of the books. There are a few legal records and things that have to be managed in the transfer. We're working on advertising still in northern media to make sure that people know they don't go to the federal government anymore but to the Northwest Territories government. We're also working on an implementation report that will identify some lessons learned for the next time we do devolution.

Since devolution came into effect, three additional Northwest Territories aboriginal groups have signed off to become party to the devolution agreement. That's significant and important for the long-term success of devolution. That's Salt River First Nation, the Fort Liard and the Acho Dene Koe, and the Deninu K’ue First Nation. Now we have eight aboriginal groups who are party to the devolution agreement, and as I said, three joined on after devolution.

We're finalizing our commitment to funding the devolution agreement. Finance Canada is working on its continuing funding and transfers to the Northwest Territories. The amount of $3.4 million is in these supplementaries. As I said, it's really about finishing up some of the main work that was done in the previous year.

About $1.5 million in that $3.4 million is for federal operations that are required. About $1.8 million of it is actual transfers to the Northwest Territories. There are a few settling of accounts that need to be done, deferrals, and so on. When you have an operation of this magnitude, there remain a few things to tie the bow on.

We also have a little bit of money going to our friends in Public Works and Government Services Canada. A cumulative impact monitoring program is being transferred to the Government of the Northwest Territories in the course of this, and that's had an impact on the money that we will be transferring to Public Works.

In a nutshell, that's what it is. It really has been a success story. It did take an awful lot of work on the part of many people in the Northwest Territories government and many people in the federal government and a lot of political will in order to accomplish it in very tight timeframes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

I'll turn to Ms. Bennett now for the next round of questions.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks very much, and welcome.

I'm concerned here, because the minister seemed to indicate that there had been a mistake in the departmental performance report around consultation with respect to the FTEs. On page 34 of the performance report, the money is interesting, but it says that planned FTEs were 48.1 and actual FTEs were 26.1—down 22.

The minister seemed to say that actually the planned was 26. That's quite an error. As a new deputy minister, that must concern you.

[Colleen Swords]

The difficulty we have now is that we used to report to Parliament in the DPR at the program level. We didn't divide up the planned FTEs and the actual FTEs in the past at what's now the subprogram level. We're still working out exactly which....

At times, you can have an FTE that's doing a bit of different subprograms. If you look up at the program level, it's correct and accurate. When you get down into the subprogram levels, we had to do a certain amount of adjustments in trying to figure out exactly how it will work at that level.

I think we'll get better and better at this as we are refining, but we did not have to do that in the past. So it's not an error at the program level, if you look on page 29.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But in the money...? On page 34—

[Colleen Swords]

No, I'm just talking about the FTEs.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Yes. Well, in the performance report, looking at “Sub-Program 1.2.4: Consultation and Engagement” on page 34, it looks like it's gone down from 48 planned FTEs to 26 actual. But that's a $3.5-million difference.

[Colleen Swords]

I appreciate your concern. I'll certainly be looking into it to understand exactly what this is referring to.

My understanding is that in the past, this item of consultation and accommodation related to funding that we were giving to aboriginal representative organizations for their core funding. In fact, we give $20 million a year to aboriginal representative organizations for their core funding. There are 46 of them across the country.

Clearly that funding is not all coming out of this line item anymore. I think this line item is being used to identify more work that we're doing on what we call ATRIS, which is a treaty registry and information system. We have a small group that operates as a consultation and accommodation unit to give advice and help train other government departments.

What gets misleading is that it sounds as though that's the entire amount of money we spend on consultation and accommodation, and that isn't correct. The department and many departments that have regulatory responsibilities are spending a lot of time on consultation and accommodation. This particular item gets more at what is going out to organizations for that.

What it misses, though, is the strategic partnerships initiative. With regard to the Ring of Fire in Northern Ontario, we've given a significant amount of money to the first nations in the Matawa group so they could build up their capacity to consult. That appears under the strategic partnerships initiative fund instead of under consultation and accommodation.

The title of the program doesn't capture everything that consultation and accommodation constitutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Obviously it's a sensitive topic. Even when the minister referred to the Yukon bill, he said that people liked most of it, but didn't like those four. I think people want greater transparency and accountability around who did it, what they heard, and what happened to what they heard. Certainly we heard from the Yukon chiefs yesterday that they weren't consulted on those other four parts that got added in after the consultation. Are you able to tell us anything about that?

[Colleen Swords]

What I can tell you—and this doesn't appear in that heading—is that we actually did provide, it looks like, $149,000 to different aboriginal organizations in Yukon for consultations on the legislation.

There were consultations. I believe the issue—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I think it's not the way the bill is written now, because the consultation was on the bill in its previous form. Since then there have been these four bits that everybody hates and feels they weren't consulted on at all.