Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Please be brief. We are out of time.

[Joe Wild]

I'm sorry. I'll be very quick about this. The policy does not override what's in any treaty. The treaties continue to apply. The policy was meant to enunciate the basis on which we were calculating our mandate. It was never meant to take away from the negotiation that has to happen in terms of the fiscal renewal, but we're committed to a new approach and have launched that dialogue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you, all three of you.

The next question is to David Yurdiga, please.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Minister Bennett appeared before this committee. She mentioned fixes to Nutrition North and indicated 15 more communities are being added to the program. When can we expect the names of those communities to be announced, and is the additional $12 million in the 2016 budget to accommodate these additional communities?

[Stephen Van Dine, Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

The number Minister Bennett referenced was with respect to the number of communities that were expected to come in to receive full funding under it. That number referred to the number that are currently receiving a partial subsidy at the moment.

Budget 2016 amounts are subject to further decisions. We're hoping those decisions will be made in a reasonable amount of time to deal with the demand for increased fairness in the program, which was one of the recommendations of the Auditor General this past year.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I didn't get a clear answer. Are there 15 more communities, or are we topping up 15 communities that are already in the program?

[Stephen Van Dine]

The Auditor General pointed out there is a fairness issue with respect to the application of the program. We've been tasked with doing an analysis of all communities that should be eligible for the program. Some of them were excluded from the program that previously received...what was the former program, under food mail. There will be an increase in the number of communities after we've done the analysis and after we've taken the proper decisions within the government processes. There will be an increase in the number of communities served.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

There is not going to be 15. There potentially could be, but not necessarily.

[Stephen Van Dine]

I suspect the number won't be less than 15. That will be based on the analysis to date, which will be made public very soon. The number of additional communities will be known and can be discussed in the public domain.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

The Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs indicated Nutrition North is broken. Can you elaborate on the program failures and the changes proposed to enhance the Nutrition North program?

[Stephen Van Dine]

I believe the Minister referred to some comments she had made prior to her current position as minister, and that was at a time when the program was in the early days of implementation.

The program itself has received quite a bit of attention and quite a bit of scrutiny, including two internal audits and evaluations from the department. The Auditor General has had the benefit of several community meetings through the advisory board committee. We will now be undertaking an engagement process to look at the program more broadly and the details of that engagement process will be known, hopefully, in the near future.

Insofar as the program working, we do know that the program up to this point has reduced the cost of food in comparison with the previous food program. We do know that the nutrition education component of the program is highly subscribed to and is of high value, and we do know that there has been ongoing criticism that the program is not doing enough with respect to country food. That is one issue that we expect to address in the coming engagement and consultations.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

What I get from you is that the program is working. The original design was to ensure that food costs are reduced for northern communities. I understand that.

Has the ministry produced any studies on the impact of the carbon tax that will affect a lot of northern and indigenous communities? Is there a study happening, or is there going to be a study to consider those impacts?

[Stephen Van Dine]

There has been quite a bit of attention to some programming that had been announced previously and some additional funds were found in budget 2016. We're working closely with Environment and Climate Change Canada and other federal departments on the renewal of the climate change programming, of which the notion of switching from diesel-generated power as a primary supply to other forms that are less intensive in terms of emissions will be considered. We will also be looking into the notion of some of the alternative energy projects that we've funded through many communities, Colville Lake being one. This coming summer they'll be converting to relying solely on solar for four months of the year. That's an exciting project.

In terms of impacts in determining carbon emissions for the north, or the Arctic as a whole, we don't have any such study under way at this moment, but as members will know, the footprint or the generation of greenhouse gases in the Arctic, which is primarily fairly sparsely populated and small and remote, is not a number that will generate a statistical difference in terms of Canada's national emissions.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

We don't really know the impact of a carbon tax at this point because, obviously, the biggest cost is transportation, and you have to bring food from the south to the north. You know that's carbon intensive. You have to power the big trucks or the planes to get there.

That's concerning. If we don't know the impact, how are we going to address the issue? The cost of everything will go up for these people and, obviously, their incomes are not. It's troubling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Fifteen seconds, if you can work with that.

[Stephen Van Dine]

I believe it's known that the first ministers' meeting committed to a series of working groups to look into the impact of different measures related to carbon tracking and minimization. We'll have to wait and see what results come out of that and assess what the impacts might be. I know territorial governments are involved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you both.

Charlie Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much for coming today.

I'm looking at the budget and the money that has been promised for indigenous peoples, but I don't see anything of a five-year breakdown of how it will be spent, other than in the area of education.

Would you be able to provide our committee with a five-year breakdown covering housing and water and so on, just so we know there is actually a plan to spend the money in an appropriate manner?

[Françoise Ducros]

I can't provide that to you right now. The implementation of the budget is still being worked out. We'll go through the processes, including through the Treasury Board. We can certainly keep the committee posted and come back to that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you. It would be very helpful, because if we're going to have large amounts of money, we need to know that it's on a proper plan.

I'm looking at the 2016-17 report on plans and priorities, and under elementary and secondary education you list your expected results and your performance indicators. Under expected results, you say “First Nation students progress in their elementary and secondary education”, and under performance indicators, “The percentage of tested students on reserve who meet or exceed standard assessment for literacy and numeracy...”. That all sounds great, but under targets it gets really vague: “Incremental increase year after year”.

What are you basing this on?

[Françoise Ducros]

I'll have to get back to you on all the details of that, in consultation with my colleague from education and social programs, but in terms of what the targets are based on, various measures are used. Some of it is based on testing pursuant to some of the proposal-driven programs. Some of it is based on systems where their data is collected on reserve. There's a different amalgam of how we collect those indicators. I can provide those to the committee.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Could you, please? I was looking at the 2013-14 performance and priorities, and it was the first time I believe AANDC at the time had ever listed literacy and numeracy rates. In the Ontario region the numeracy rate for boys was 18%. Literacy was 21%. I don't know if you could find literacy rates that low anywhere in the world, except maybe sub-Saharan Africa.

It's stated in that performance report that you aren't going to follow up anymore. So what are you testing? If you're talking about an incremental increase year after year, when people have a numeracy rate of 18%, I mean, how many centuries will it take to get them up to a provincial standard?

[Françoise Ducros]

I will endeavour to provide the committee with both the tools we use in testing, which is through, as I said, some of the proposal-based programming, but also the broader data collection that has been put in place through various systems that are now being used in partnership on reserve.

In answer to your question on how we will increase those outcomes, the idea is to endeavour to continue to work in partnership through that agenda and the reconciliation agenda—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you. But I'm looking at performance indicators for those who graduate from high school: “Incremental increase year after year”.

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes.