Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2018

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I'll pass that along, then.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

All right, we're moving on to MP Arnold Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our guests for being here today.

Bill, for the sake of reference, you said your parents had to go all the way to Red Deer. Can you tell us how far a drive that is?

[Bill Boese]

Red Deer would be 800 kilometres or 900 kilometres.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

How many hours would it take to get there?

[Bill Boese]

It's a 10-hour drive.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Jeff, you kept bringing up these “northern metrics”. It's a great term. We just need to understand what it means. Is it in terms of measuring how many people need care, or is it in terms of service levels of care? Could you go through that a little bit more?

[Jeff Anderson]

Yes. Thanks, Arnold.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Sorry to put you on the spot, Jeff.

[Jeff Anderson]

No, I'm not on the spot.

From the 50,000-foot level on the northern metrics, I'd say what we've understood exclusively over about the last year and a half or two years as we ramped up our last 10 years, Arnold, is that the municipal government has its statistics, the province has its statistics, and the federal government has its statistics. We have been identifying and acknowledging the gaps that are in between all three of those levels.

We want to talk apples to apples. We know that we need, let's say, a 25-unit facility that's level DSL2 for this many, level DSL3 for that many, and long-term care for that many. I want to be able to tell you, Mr. Viersen, exactly what that is, and right now I can guarantee you that the data does not do that.

I can't speak specifically about how far the data is skewed in those gaps. Natalie would certainly be able to help you on that part.

Natalie, do you want to add to that?

[Natalie Gibson]

With consideration of the region, as I mentioned, there are four different datasets that are very widely skewed. I know that the province right now is working on capturing the unique aspects of the indigenous population within the region as well as within the province.

In a conference call last week, we had a discussion that 5% error was okay. That's an interesting statement, to me. They're doing their best, but the data doesn't exist. It's 5% of what? Is it of 100 people, 200 people, 500 people in home care? That can substantially influence whether it's a 10-bed facility that is scalable or a 30-bed facility.

I think that the northern metrics.... We know that the indigenous population within Alberta is growing at four times the average national rate, and within the region, six times more than the standard non-indigenous population. We also know that the median age is eight years under the rest of the population. All of these influence the wait-lists and the prevalence of chronic diseases.

When we talk about northern metrics, we're talking about socio-economic conditions. We're talking about the unique cultural blend of Mennonites, Métis, first nations, and indigenous people living within the region. Even the indigenous people living off reserve have been noted as having higher levels of chronic diseases than the general population has. These are all examples for consideration that the formula—here's the box; calculate by number for a funding formula—doesn't fit in a northern, rural, and remote community.

Does that answer your question, Mr. Viersen?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, I think so.

One of the interesting things, when we're talking about northern metrics, is that a lot of times a metric that works well in Edmonton doesn't work well in northern Alberta. Do you have any examples of that in your particular area?

[Natalie Gibson]

With the general population—and Jeff mentioned this in his speaking notes—we don't have apples-to-apples comparisons within the province and federal government.

Alberta Health Services gathers data under the Meditech program. The federal government, indigenous affairs, gathers it under another program. We don't actually have the data that says, here are your wait-lists within this community that are comparable, but we do know that you can't call a cab and you don't have the ability to access medication.

Seniors and elders aren't staying in their homes longer. They're being forced to stay in their homes longer because there's nowhere else to go. If they do go, they have to migrate two or three hours out to Peace River. Once you're on that waiting list, if you choose not to go, which is called “refusal”, then you can get bumped back even further for your next placement.

These are all considerations. Note, also, that this is a volunteer board, so they don't have medical backgrounds. Some of the concrete medical data that should exist, and compare and overlap with other data, does not exist at this date, that we're aware of.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Getting back to Chief Meneen, one thing I've heard about often is that, particularly in the case of private institutions, we've seen some housing boards close down smaller facilities and build bigger facilities in larger centres.

Have your communities had any experience in which elders were living in one smaller facility and have then been moved to a bigger centre because the smaller one was shut down?

[Chief Rupert Meneen]

No, I don't think we have. There is only one facility right now in the north, and that is in La Crete. That is the only place. We have an elder in there right now.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

La Crete, I understand, is a private facility funded by the Alberta government.

[Chief Rupert Meneen]

I believe so, yes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

The facility is actually private, and staying there is funded by the Alberta government, as I understand it.

[Natalie Gibson]

There are 122 beds within the region, and they are all full.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

Is there anything else that you want to leave with us? I have 30 seconds left on my clock.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Questioning goes to MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you all so much for being here. I really appreciated your presentations.

I represent a rural riding in British Columbia, and some of my indigenous communities are far away. You have to take a boat to find a road to drive on. We certainly understand, then, the particular challenges of accessibility, and also the challenge of so many seniors leaving the community. I have heard some heartbreaking stories about seniors—especially elders with dementia, when they are away from home and losing their English language and going back to their first language, which nobody else can speak—and the challenges of providing care. I really appreciate what you're saying.

I appreciated what you said, Natalie, that we don't know what we don't know. I understand, and we've heard from others besides you that this is a challenge of data, for sure.

Could you talk a little about what the federal government—because that's who you're talking to right now—could do better to help us have a better understanding of what is happening in these communities?

[Natalie Gibson]

I believe it's actually multi-jurisdictional. To have it brought to the point of proper policy to make the right decisions, we believe as a group that there needs to be regional, first nation, indigenous population, provincial, and federal governments working together.

One of our recommendations is the standardization of core data, and then allowing for flexibility of adding other data based on regional needs. As you mentioned, we have communities in the north that are accessed by barge, or by fly-in and fly-out service as well.

The consideration is more than.... The word “collaboration” is sometimes overused, so I'll use the word “partnership”, in which the core data is agreed to and you say how it will work. From that, you can start better planning facilities and partnerships. There is a region to the south of this particular region in which the municipality has gone ahead and built their own facility. The challenge that we then hear from Alberta Health Services is that they don't know how to operate it, because they went ahead and built it on their own. Now there is a disconnect.

I believe that if it's federally driven or just provincially driven, the same thing will occur. The multidisciplinary task force and team concept, we think, is a good solution.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

The other thing I heard concerned the amount of money that was spent on research that gave you some meaningful information that would help.

I'm wondering what the barrier is. The research was done. Can you tell me why we are waiting, four years later? What wasn't done, and what is the barrier? What is the gap?

I open it up to anyone. I'm not sure who would be the best to answer.

[Chief Rupert Meneen]

It's Chief Meneen, here. Can I answer that?

I'll go back a little bit to the question of what the federal government should do. I think the federal government should get busy and start looking at what we've done.

We've created partnerships, we've reached out to Alberta Health, we've reached out to Health Canada, and we've reached out to the federal government. We have brought a group of people together who are more than willing to work together to bring this to reality. I think we've done our part, and I think it's time for the government to look at what more we can do and how can we get this moving sooner rather than later.

I always go back to saying “let's get moving on this”. It seems that we've been standing still for a little while, and I think it's time for us to get moving. We've done a lot of the homework and a lot of the work that needs to be done, and I think we need to do something today.

Thank you.