Evidence of meeting #124 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was results.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Effectively what we've been measuring in the past is a graduation level that is based on the core year 12, and you're right in saying that's not the ideal one—
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
—and we agree with this. We also agree on our side that we need to sit down and work with first nations on what is meaningful for them to measure. We don't necessarily want to come with a one-size-fits-all approach from Ottawa and say, “This is the way to do that.” That's what we've been doing.
For example, we mentioned earlier about the agreement that we renewed in B.C. We sat down with them, and we now have an agreement on a set of data that is going to be measured over the next few years that will test the success or failure of the system or what needs to be improved in the system.
That's only the education system, and we need more than that.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, okay. I was just referring to the Community Well-Being Index, but you're right: on education, that's the way we're going.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In the past, we've been struggling in terms of the collection of data in the federal government, and you know that more than me.
I think we've made progress in terms of collecting the information and actually having it in our system. The problem is the interpretation, the analysis of the data. It's also making sure that the data is used by the first nations themselves, and that's where we're moving now.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
We're not even tracking students, and that's why you're getting flawed data—
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
—on your graduation rates.
I might quit in grade 10. You don't know where I end up. I might have gone off reserve into an urban community. You're not even tracking anyone.
How would you know? At the end of the day, let's say it's three years from grade 10 to 11 to 12. I graduate, but it might take me five or six years. It doesn't matter. I'm still finishing over that line, graduating from grade 12.
We have no tracking of students on this.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's a very good point, and it's a challenge that we have.
When we mentioned that people don't graduate or they drop out, we potentially have cases of people—you're right—moving off reserve, going into the provincial system. As soon as they go into the provincial system and I don't fund them, it means that I'm losing track of them. I don't know what's going on. I cannot say that they have failed, but I don't want to say they've succeeded, because I don't know.
There are issues like that. You're right. We also believe that there could be people who will drop out for a few years—
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
—and maybe come back to school. The best way would be to identify the people and make sure.... To do that, we need to do it with the organizations and we need to sit down with the provinces. We don't necessarily have access to the provincial tracking system.
When I was in a provincial system—
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's a flaw.
They were tracking me, and even if I was moving from one place to another place, they knew where I was.
However, that's not the case—
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Yes, exactly.
I saw it in urban Saskatchewan. We had students come off reserve. They come into the city; they go back to the reserve later. We tracked them, and then they were gone.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
They were just gone.
The other thing is on how we can get Inuit and Métis and first nations students engaged when we don't know if they show up or not. We have no tracking of attendance.
With everybody in Canada, the first thing at nine o'clock or 8:30, when they get there, is we'll go down by row to see if they're there.
There's no tracking of attendance. When I go up north, Johnny hasn't been there for 10 days. Does someone phone Johnny's parent or find out where he is? This is academic stuff. If we don't take attendance, if we don't track, this will never get fixed. You'll be back here time and time again with these flawed results. They'll never get fixed.
They have to show up in school, and we have to track them, and we're still not doing it. This system isn't working.
You said you have a system in B.C., but how am I going to poll their results with Nova Scotia? At the end of the day, I have to look at the whole country and say whether this program is working and that one isn't working. At the end of day, how are we going to know that this is a good system and that we can fit it in nationwide?
We do have to have a nationwide policy on this.
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
At the moment, we're working at the regional level. We expect and suspect that there will be common indicators across the country at the end.
When we talked with B.C., for example, attendance and graduation were there. We think that others will come with indicators that are similar, but there could differences, for sure.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you very much.
I'm really dismayed and disheartened with what I'm hearing today from both departments and the federal government.
We are talking about the lives of first nations children and young people who aspire to become someone with the support of services. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
It really hurts me when I go into the constituency and go out on the reserve and I hear of a young person who has no place to live, and the school they go to is run down and they don't have enough equipment.
Canada is a rich country. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This is really pathetic, and it's really upsetting to me.
Have both departments read the truth and reconciliation report?
You have read it, and yet you struggle with getting measurements to improve the lives of our young children and teenagers, from education to language to culture.
How can you sit there and talk about relationship-building when you are lacking the human kindness to even make improvements? I have no faith in the system, and it's breaking my heart.
How can you sit there and even talk about the young person who is going to school and not being tracked?
What do you say to that, both of you?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Let me answer that.
I won't comment on your comments on my kindness. What I will come back to is what we're doing on education regarding the funding.
For example, when you say that those people don't have the capacity, the money or the tools on reserve, we have now worked with the Assembly of First Nations and the regional chiefs. Over 14 months, we developed a funding formula for education that is provincial plus. It has been agreed to by first nation leaders. This formula guarantees that there is as much money on-reserve as there is off-reserve, as well as adopting some elements including special education, language and culture, and of course kindergarten. We are moving in that direction. That's what we're doing. We understand that there are three big elements that need to be addressed.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
