Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Let's not forget that we have Jay by video conference.

[Jay Grewal]

In the Northwest Territories, we have not at this point been looking at the small nuclear option. We don't see it being feasible within the next 10 years, though it is within our energy strategy and is something that we are looking at in the longer term. I would say, as Bruno and others have identified, that there is a sensitivity in the communities to the concept of nuclear.

One of the items that we didn't touch on is what else is being explored, which is geothermal.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We've run out of time.

Let's not forget wind too. I'll just throw that in.

MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thanks so much to all of you for being here today.

I'm going to start with you, Jay, since that's where we left off.

You talked a lot about various methods of producing energy. You talked about run-of-the-river energy and solar and wind. You've just talked about geothermal. What I really want to get to the crux of is the reality of what I'm hearing, which is that this is a complex situation where there are multiple parts that may help, but there may not be one sole solution. You may have to look at a combination. As we're all trying to move forward and be more environmentally friendly, that's a specific challenge for your region.

Perhaps you could talk about where you see those things working together and where you really need the support in terms of infrastructure funding to go in that direction.

[Jay Grewal]

That's a very good question. With the ISED funding, we are looking at wind. The Inuvik wind project that I mentioned has been approved and is moving forward.

We are looking at LNG, which is 30% less GHG. We are looking at interconnectivity, including transmission. We are looking at solar, and we already have a number of solar installations.

I would say, though, that when we develop our 20-year strategic plan, when we map that all out and look at it, the reality is that, although that may allow us to reduce our carbon footprint, we will only achieve 50% of what we need to in the Northwest Territories. The only way we can see, at this point in time, the ability to address the other 50% as well as address reliability and the cost of power is to proceed with hydro power. That will allow us to support mining development. It will allow us to connect the two systems and move transmission up and connect diesel communities where currently, until battery power advances or variable speed generators improve, we really won't be able to come up with a solution to address it.

For now, we're looking at what we can do on an interim solution basis, but everything we've modelled and mapped out indicates that we need to work with the indigenous partners to advance Taltson.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

Bruno, I'm asking you the same question.

[Bruno Pereira]

I think that we're looking at all the possibilities. I think there are technical constraints and there are also other considerations. The nuclear option has considerations other than technical.

For us, we're looking at intermittent power sources, solar and wind versus on-demand, and the deep geothermal. We're looking to do a couple of test holes in a couple of communities to look at the deep geothermal. We're looking at options. In fact, we're going to throw it to the market. We're introducing an independent power producer program, and hopefully third parties can come up with solutions.

We're releasing a paper shortly that talks about all of the possibilities and how they apply to Nunavut. I think you're right, it's probably going to be a mix-and-match. If there are hydro possibilities in the community, we may be able to do that in community A. In community B, hopefully there's some deep geothermal, and I know there's at least one community in Nunavut that is interested in the nuclear option.

I do believe it's going to be a long-term proposition, particularly in Nunavut. We're really right at the starting line. I mentioned before 100% diesel, so to get the momentum going, often for us now, that will mean double investments in infrastructure because if you do intermittent, you need the diesel backup.

Right now, if you look at solar and wind, there are some technical issues, but really for us, it's more financial. That's really what's holding us back.

Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Doug, do you have anything to add?

[Doug Tenney]

I would say there is no silver bullet for any of these. As we mentioned, the communities are a long way apart, so it's going to be difficult to see interconnections for all these communities. I think large-scale hydro with transmission interconnections to the south does allow, if the partnerships are set up correctly, the opportunity for those to reduce diesel costs in the north. You might still have diesel in a community, but you can subsidize it by the profits you make by selling the power to southern Canada.

[Sergio Marchi]

Could I say for ten seconds that one silver bullet is expensive, but one silver bullet may be the issue of interties. As we noted in our submission, Yukon is looking at trying to connect on the grid vis-à-vis British Columbia. NWT is looking at Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Nunavut. In other words, the silver bullet is expensive, and when the Department of Finance says, “Marchi, this is too expensive”, I say, “Well, so was building a national road across the country. So was building a national broadcasting system. So was the space arm”. We did all of those things for something called nation-building, and sometimes nation-building doesn't have a cheap price to it.

When I look at our north, we electrified our cities in the south first, we then electrified our rural communities, and you know what? We really haven't finished the job on the third part of our Canada triangle, the north. Not only do they not have affordable electricity, but let's be frank, they also don't have the same quality power system as we in the south. Does it cost a little bit to do those interties? Yes. Is it worth the nation-building concept of our country when we speak so passionately about the north? Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Mike, you're next, and you have two minutes.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Are there hydro opportunities as well up in Nunavut?

[Bruno Pereira]

Yes, there are. I'll give you an example. We did a study. Right now we have in diesel about 20 megawatts of capacity in Iqaluit. That costs about $40 million. There is a possibility for 20 megawatts of hydro. We just reviewed the costs earlier this year; it's $350 million. Those are the challenges we face.

We also have run-of-river in some of the communities, etc., but all of it just illustrates the fact that we're talking about different logistics, different cost structures, and really it's a significant showstopper for us as an organization.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That was for 20 megawatts either way. For the hydro system, would it have been limited to 20 megawatts for $350 million or could you have scaled that up to a much higher amount of power?

[Bruno Pereira]

That's actually for two different locations close to Iqaluit. That's the maximum from those two particular locations. You could build in other potential areas, but that would mean additional investment. That's the maximum for the $350 million, the 20 megawatts.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If you were to take that $350 million and build it in an area that actually makes more sense for hydro, has there been any study done to find out what the transmission costs would be to bring the lines from the hydro site to those centres and, just feeding off what Sergio is talking about, being able to feed that into other areas?

[Bruno Pereira]

In Iqaluit, we're remote from other communities. From Baffin Island, where we are, you can't get to a lot of the other areas. That's similar to a lot of other communities in Nunavut. There is a potential transmission line from Manitoba to Nunavut, which would supply five communities going up the west side of Hudson Bay. That's being reviewed as we speak.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

So geothermal would actually potentially be a better source because of the isolation that exists. If you can get that deep geothermal, that works. That to me sounds like it would be potentially the best opportunity.

[Bruno Pereira]

I think it's a possibility. I'm hesitating a little bit because we just did a desktop study. Three communities out of the 25 were identified for additional study to see if they were viable. Even if those three were realized, there are still the other 22 communities.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I've run out of time.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Unfortunately, we've all run out of time. Please submit your briefs. We will be accepting briefs as the study goes on. I want to thank you for coming out and having such an engaging discussion.

The meeting is adjourned.