Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 19th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Good morning, everybody.

We're at the indigenous and northern affairs committee, on a lovely spring day. You can feel it outside, that it will turn. I think it's actually warmer back home in the west than it is here.

Before we start, I want to recognize that Canada is in a process of truth and reconciliation. It's very important for us to think about that, especially in our committee, but also for all of government, and the fact that we're on the unceded territory of the Algonquin people here in Ottawa.

I want to thank the guests for coming. We are in the process of hearing witnesses in a study on community capacity, on the ability to get an education, on training and on job opportunities. We're very anxious to hear from our witnesses. The diversity of opportunities often depends on your ability for economic development, for access to your reserves or coming into the city.

The committee will, I'm sure, ask you many relevant questions, and you have the opportunity to present for up to 10 minutes.

I see that we have two groups. We have the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association....

You may have us all to yourselves, because so far Ontario First Nations has not arrived; but they may.

Let's get started. You have 10 minutes, and then we'll get into the question period.

It's over to you.

[Theodore Johnny Merasty, Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association]

Thank you very much, Madame.

My name is Theodore John Merasty. I am from the Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation, in northeastern Saskatchewan. Our territory encompasses 32,000 square kilometres, eight communities, and over 11,000 band members, and it is a vast untapped territory. It's been tapped a little bit but not as much as it could be.

Good morning. I am a land manager and I am also on the board of directors for the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association, NALMA. I'm also the chair of the Saskatchewan Aboriginal Lands Technicians, SALT, which I've been with for a number of years. I'm here today with my colleague Albert Marshall Jr. from the east to speak on behalf of our associations, specifically with regard to community capacity-building and the retention of talent in the delivery of essential services on reserve lands.

I'm going to say a few words in my first language.

[Witness spoke in Cree]

[English]

We would like to thank the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs for the invitation to speak today. We look upon this opportunity to promote awareness of raising professional standards in first nation land management and to draw attention to the need to build capacity in first nations across the country.

The National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association was officially formed in 2000 as a not-for-profit, non-political organization. NALMA is a technical organization driven by first nations land management professionals across Canada. Our association is composed of eight regional lands associations with 195 first nations and Inuit communities represented, namely in the regions of Atlantic Canada, Quebec and Labrador, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Nunavut and British Columbia.

Our members operate under various land programs or regimes. The RLEMP program is the reserve land and environment management program, which manages reserves under the Indian Act. The second one is the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management, which is managing lands under a sectoral self-government arrangement. Third is self-government for full control of administration, land and resources.

NALMA and our regional lands associations work towards providing opportunities in professional development, networking and technical support that will meet the existing, emerging and future needs of first nations land managers to efficiently and effectively manage their lands.

In the 2017-18 fiscal year, NALMA provided land management training to 800 first nations participants. In addition, we engaged and provided technical support to approximately 2,000. For more information regarding our association, visit nalma.ca and coemrp.ca.

A central pillar of NALMA's mandate is to raise professional standards and promote a code of ethics among practitioners in the field of land management on reserve. As the national certifying body for professional lands managers working on reserves across the country, NALMA holds expertise in the development and retention of professional capacity in first nations. Since the inception of our professional lands management certification program, NALMA has graduated 175 certified land managers across the country. There were only a couple in Alberta.

With respect to retention of professional capacity, NALMA has observed a number of challenges for indigenous nations. Not surprisingly, one of the central issues is a lack of funding to retain qualified staff. Oftentimes, what the nation can afford in compensation is substantially less than what a person with equivalent qualifications could earn off reserve. In the field of land management, we have seen certified land managers leave their home community to work for another first nation or government or industry. There are multiple elements that contribute to the decision to relocate, and without a doubt, compensation is one of them.

Other obstacles to retention can include unrealistic expectations about the workload of the individual and job descriptions that include too many disparate responsibilities. As well, there is the lack of job security or a secure funding source for long-term positions, and the need for more trained staff—for example, more than one qualified person working in that capacity. Peter Ballantyne is a large band, one of the largest in western Canada, and I'm the only land manager in the whole department, as an example. There is also wage stagnation, lack of support from leadership, and difficulty in accessing training close to home, which can be a barrier to career growth, especially for women.

[Witness spoke in Cree]

[Albert Marshall Jr., Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association]

Thank you.

Good morning, everyone. My name is Albert Marshall Jr. I am from the Eskasoni First Nation in Nova Scotia, Mi'kmaq territory. I’m also a board member for the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association, and I am the chair for the Atlantic Region Aboriginal Lands Association, ARALA, in the Atlantic.

I'd like to say a few words in Mi'kmaq too.

[Witness spoke in Mi'kmaq]

[English]

I would like to honour and acknowledge the ancestral lands of the Algonquin peoples. We ask the Creator and the spirit of our ancestors to grant us wisdom and speak for the benefit of our peoples.

Managing reserve land can be very complicated and demanding. Working under the legal framework of the Indian Act or sectoral self-government land codes requires specialized knowledge and skills. Typically, a land manager is responsible for managing the lands, environment and natural resources. This can be very challenging and overwhelming for staff who do not have sufficient support and training.

In the 2017-18 fiscal year, NALMA, in partnership with Indigenous Services Canada, conducted 15 national engagement sessions involving 300 first nation representatives with respect to the reserve land and environment management program, RLEMP, and the Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interests or Rights Act, FHRMIRA.

A common theme that surfaced in all the engagement sessions was the need for stable, multi-year funding to support core staff at appropriate salary levels equivalent with the public service of Canada. The need for professional development and capacity was another key area of consideration. Final reports of the engagement sessions can be found on the ISC website.

We find ourselves at an unprecedented time in Canadian history, where indigenous nations are being affirmed as governments in their own right and the nation-to-nation relationship between the Crown and indigenous nations is being actively cultivated. As part of this relationship-building process, it is imperative for the Canadian government to recognize and support the needs and to contribute to first nation success in reaching greater autonomy.

Thank you again for the invitation to speak.

Wela'lioq.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

We're going to start the questioning period with MP Yves Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, Lib.]

I thank the witnesses for their statements.

Several classes have now graduated from the Professional Land Management Certification Program. Have you had any feedback from the graduates about this training and its usefulness in the communities?

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

The answer is yes. I am a product of the professional land management certification program. I also took the indigenous peoples resource management program out of the University of Saskatchewan. I also went to the integrated resource management program 25 years ago through SIAST, which is now called Saskatchewan Polytechnic.

In terms of going out to get training and then coming back to serve our communities, that is exactly what we did.

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

Just to add to that, yes, people have come back to the course. Given that some people's dynamics change—some people go off sick or something—they have the opportunity to come back to finish their course.

To add to what Ted said, yes, it's very beneficial to our communities when you have well-trained staff.

Thank you.

[Yves Robillard]

Your training program seems essential to the development of community capacity, and particularly to the autonomy of communities.

In your opinion, would it be beneficial to broaden this program so that it can benefit more people? How could access to the program be facilitated?

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

It is absolutely imperative that we expand the program. Not to impugn Indigenous Services Canada, but in past years they have funded only one land manager per first nation. As you well know, if you have a school in your community and you have only one teacher, it doesn't bode well for the community. You need more educated people; you need more land managers.

In my community, I definitely need three or four more land managers to manage four to five reserves and almost 100,000 acres of land: agricultural, leased and commercially designated lands.

It's absolutely imperative that the program be expanded, because what's good for first nations is also good for Canada.

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

Thank you, Ted.

Just to add to that, we also added a couple more universities to our schedule: Victoria, B.C., and Algoma University, here in Ontario. We're trying to reach out to our western colleagues to make training more accessible for them, and also to individuals who are in the east.

Thank you.

[Yves Robillard]

Are there other programs whose objective is to improve community capacity, which you have not yet been able to implement? How can the federal government contribute to their implementation?

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

Speaking only for my community, I am five hours north of Saskatoon in Saskatchewan, so accessing educational institutes was a big factor in my having to leave my community to go out to get an education.

Also, I come from a family of 11 brothers and sisters, all of whom had to leave their reserve to go out to get an education, and most of them haven't come back because there are not enough jobs in the communities and there are just not enough resources within each first nation to retain a lot of the people who go out and get an education.

A lot of us would like to go back and serve our communities, right in our home communities, but because where I am in Prince Albert is a centralized location, and I have to be where the position is.

Also, with regard to the lack of resources available to a lot of reserve communities, a lot of them would succeed more if there were, for example, more university education courses or even trade schools within our communities. For example, Pelican Narrows is a community of over 3,000 people, but there is only high school there.

Sometimes we have programs that come in from time to time, but there's nothing solid, concrete, and nothing long-term like a two-year diploma program or a four-year college education. We all have to leave for that.

If you think maybe it's easy to leave, I would just ask if any one of you would go to one of our reserves for four years to go to school. The culture shock would be quite a bit different and stark.

I think it is very important that we expand education in all communities going forward. The more educated a population you have, the better it is for everybody.

I just want to throw this out there. I know that oftentimes dollars are a factor in educating people, but think about it this way. If you provide four years of university education to any one person, the Government of Canada gets back over 40 years of a tax-paying, productive member of society, so that's a good investment, not just in first nations but in all of Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Monsieur Robillard, you have about one minute.

[Yves Robillard]

That's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

We have with us Melanie Debassige from the Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation. Does the committee wish to suspend the question period to allow an opening statement? Is that fine?

Melanie, welcome. Would you like to present something to the committee? Then we'll go on to MP McLeod.

[Melanie Debassige, Executive Director, Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation]

First of all, thank you.

I would like to begin by acknowledging, again, the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg people. I also want to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in this study pertaining to community capacity development and the retention of talent in the delivery of essential services on reserve.

My name is Melanie Debassige and I'm from M’Chigeeng First Nation. I'm the executive director at the Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation. The OFNTSC has been around for 25 years, and I am the first indigenous female they've hired in this 25-year period. The organization is very proud of that.

The OFNTSC welcomes the opportunity to contribute. We were mandated by the Ontario first nations' chiefs in assembly in 1992-93. We're the largest technical advisory services organization here in Ontario. We provide technical advisory services in the areas of capital project planning, development, quality assurance, training and operations, fire protection, architectural support services, housing inspections and the housing program. Our underlying objectives are fostering greater first nation autonomy and the acquisition of capital facilities and infrastructure and development. We also promote the development of modern community health and safety practices.

The OFNTSC envisions self-sufficient and sustainable first nations capacity to deliver self-reliant technical services for future generations. As we move forward, OFNTSC is building on our engagement capacity to work effectively with the indigenous communities we service and to advance reconciliations, informed and guided by the TRC calls to action.

OFNTSC is working with all staff to provide cultural support. One of the things we like to pride ourselves on is that we are a first nations organization but we cannot just be a first nations organization. We also have to bring those practices in and learn about our people at the same time from things that we've lost over the last 150 years.

OFNTSC will continue to rely on the advice and support of indigenous people to improve our hiring and retention strategies. We will better incorporate the advice and support of elders and seek to increase indigenous representation in our leadership and governance structures.

OFNTSC continually seeks ways to connect, receive feedback and exchange information with the indigenous people we work with. We are committed to trying new things and working closely with our people to innovate, adapt and adopt best practices. Ideally, we will be part of a made-in-Canada effort to design and demonstrate these best practices.

Our work with indigenous engagement is ongoing, and it's a long-term effort, but we are not there yet. We still strive and we will keep working hard to advance reconciliation with indigenous people within OFNTSC's mandate by investing in meaningful and enduring relationships with the people we work with.

Thank you again for hearing from OFNTSC today.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Meegwetch.

MP Cathy McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

One area that I've heard a number of communities talk about, and I don't think it was touched on in your presentation, is the whole issue of the land registry. I'm not sure who would be the best person to answer this particular question. Maybe it would be Mr. Marshall.

How do you perceive the issue of a land registry? Does it overlap into your area at all?

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

The land registry.... That's a good question, given the fact that there are different land regimes throughout Canada, some under RLEMP, as we mentioned, and some under sectoral self-government and FNLM. Land registry needs to be looked into and revamped, because what I've heard from membership is that they're having problems in making entries into land transactions. I'm not quite sure who is taking care of this.

Would you know, Ted?

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

Indigenous Services Canada runs the Indian lands registry.

The registry was revamped a couple of years back, but only because of the need for more privacy. It used to be open to the public. Anybody in Canada could look into that registry and find out what was happening on reserve lands, whether permits were being given or whether things were happening on those particular parcels of reserve land, so there was a privacy issue. It has since been changed, and now only first nations and their land managers, or somebody responsible from the first nation, can access the lands registry.

Everything can use improvement. With regard to where it's at now, I think it's working as intended.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Is it fairly responsive in terms of timeliness? I've heard concerns that it takes way too long in terms of being able to do things in a timely way.

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

I don't mean to be offensive, but it's a government program, so things tend to move like molasses on a cold day.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I know the systems that are in place for provinces can move at the speed of business. I've heard that there's a real challenge in terms of both registry and leasing issues. I don't know if we have anyone coming specifically to talk about that issue, but I think it's important. It is certainly a capacity thing in terms of communities being able to do the things they want to do in a timely way. I'm not sure if our witness list includes something on that.

Could you give me a job description of your lands managers, the scope and the role?

[Theodore Johnny Merasty]

Albert's is probably different in many respects from mine.

With regard to mine, back home I manage commercial properties, agricultural properties. We lease out land to farmers and hayers. We also lease properties to Saskatchewan indigenous communities, other first nations and individuals. We have lots and blocks in our communities that we've converted to reserve status and that we lease out to homeowners. Everything that has to do with lands goes through us. Rarely does anything that's happening within our own reserves escape our attention.

Imagine if Ottawa had a department that had one person responsible for all the properties in Ottawa. It would need a big department with a lot of staff.

With regard to your question, yes, there's nothing that happens back home that we don't have a say in or at least take a glance at.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I know you talked about support. Do any of them do cost recovery in terms of properties getting leased out for some kind of business venture so that there is some own-source revenue that goes back into the community and supports the work that's being done?