Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 19th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

[Dr. Roger Strasser]

—and in particular with the remote rural workforce stability framework.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

I know it can seem that the 10 minutes is flying by, but we have three additional witnesses who are here.

I understand that you are going to split the 10 minutes any way you choose. Any time you're ready, please start.

[Chief Delbert Wapass, Advisor, Thunderchild First Nation]

Thank you very much.

Good morning to each and every one of you, and to our colleagues with whom we're sharing the table. I'd like to recognize the traditional territory of the Algonquin.

My name is Delbert Wapass. I'm from Thunderchild First Nation, which is an independent band within the province of Saskatchewan. Our population is 2,850. We have a K-to-12 school. We don't get second- and third-level service funding. We have to find creative and innovative ways and partnerships, and go out and seek those positive relationships and find someone to partner with.

The challenge of the 21st century centres around skills. This is where, as a former chief of Thunderchild First Nation, as a former vice-chief of the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations, and as a former chair of the Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technologies, First Nations University of Canada, and the Saskatchewan Indigenous Cultural Centre, I have come to realize that it all comes back to the community. When we look at what we can do in our community and how we can get it right, we see that we can't have success at the post-secondary level if we're not going to have success at the elementary and secondary levels.

We've always lacked capacity because we've never been given enough money. When you look at what we get versus what others get in terms of nominal roll dollars, the operations and maintenance of the school, the capacity and so on, we never get enough, yet we're always compared. We are 13 kilometres from Turtleford School in the town of Turtleford, and we're always compared by our membership: “Why is Turtleford able to do this or that, and you're not?” As a result, we lose students to Turtleford School.

When we looked at the dollars they get versus the dollars we get, we said, “Okay, fine. We know the issue. We know the story,” and so on and so forth. How can we turn that around and provide quality to start building the building blocks, our teachers, to suit the needs of our community? If we build a solid program, what helps us build that solid program? How do we come together to ensure that the program we're building is what our community believes in, so that they turn around and start sending their students to the school on our reserve, the Piyesiw Awasis School?

To my left here is Peter Istvanffy, and he represents the Calgary Academy. The Calgary Academy is a private school. We felt that we didn't want to partner up with the public school division or the Catholic school division in Saskatoon, and so on and so forth, because they're unionized. As a private school in Thunderchild, we are not able to get them to move in regard to our needs within our respective communities. However, the Calgary Academy, being what it is, was able to move together, and through research identify what is needed, where it's needed and so on and so forth.

We went through an extensive process to finally win over the Calgary Academy as a legitimate partner. It's not a franchise. We were accused: “You guys went and partnered up with a franchise that will come in....” No, it's not that, and you'll hear the story.

To my right is George Lafond. George Lafond has been instrumental in advising and helping us build the education system that we feel, at the end of the day, will be a model for other first nations to build on.

There's a lot of money going out, but we want to use it to help shape the system and ensure we're getting a big enough bang for the dollar. We don't get enough, but it doesn't mean we can't provide what we need in our community, to the best of our ability, on behalf of our students and our community.

Education: If you don't have it, you ain't getting jobs. We know the unemployment rates. We know the housing rates. We know the health rates in our community, and everything is geared towards prevention.

With that, Madam Chair, I'd like to turn things over to Peter, and then to George.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Istvanffy, Consultant, Headwater Learning Solutions]

Thank you very much.

I have just a few things, to put it into context.

Calgary Academy is a private school, for sure. We deal with LD kids, learning-disabled students. Typically, in the community school system, about 14% of LD kids graduate from high school. Our claim to fame is that we have the enviable record of a 100% graduation rate and 88% of the kids going on to post-secondary, so we have a track record there.

The other side of it is that we have two other organizations. One is called Headwater Learning Solutions, which is the group that actually works with the Thunderchild First Nation. We have a foundation called the Calgary Academy Education and Research Foundation, which raises the money to do the work that we do so there's no dollar expenditure to the first nation, although Indigenous Services Canada is a partner in this. We're quite pleased that way.

Basically, the way this project came about was that we were approached by a group of Canadian philanthropists who were aware of the work we had done in inner city communities in the United States, where we had achieved extraordinary results, and some of the work we had done in developing nations. They asked us if we had ever done anything with first nations. We said no, that we'd never really been approached. They funded a two-year study, and we spent two years investigating first nations education in Canada.

Part of that two years was reviewing all the research and what the research said. Another part of the process was to go out and talk to people involved in first nations education across Canada. We started on the west coast, in Victoria, and we went across to the east coast into the Maritimes. We basically talked to chiefs, education directors, teachers, principals, etc. We were trying to get a good feel for what they saw as being the needs in the community. The final piece was to visit. I visited more than 100 different first nations communities to find out what they were actually doing. That's where Delbert and I, and George, came across each other.

One of the reasons for selecting the Thunderchild First Nation was having a chief and council unconditionally committed to excellence in first nations education. I could tell, having visited the school on more than one occasion, that the community embraced education. Although the results weren't there, there was certainly an enthusiasm for it.

The goal of the project is pretty straightforward. It's to develop an educational exemplar that's sustainable in the first nation's community—in Thunderchild, by Thunderchild First Nation—and the capacity, should they so choose or should other first nation communities be interested, to replicate it in other places.

We use the research-led, evidence-based approach to develop the capacity. Certainly, one of the key things is teacher retention. Our claim to fame at the Calgary Academy was having 90% of the original teachers who had started with us still there after 25 years. We've developed mechanisms for making this such an engaging and rewarding experience for teachers that they don't leave.

I could keep going on, but I'll just say that we're 18 months into it, and we've already seen some impressive results in terms of the growth in some of the key metrics.

The metrics we're looking at have three dimensions to them. The first one is educational: reading, writing and arithmetic, of course. The second one is teacher capacity to deal with the social, emotional and mental health issues of the students, and how we develop teacher capacity to do that. The third one is how we develop teacher capacity to deal with the cultural aspects of education.

That's where we are at this particular point in time.

George, go ahead.

[George E. Lafond, Strategic Development Advisor, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Peter.

Thank you very much, Delbert.

Good morning, Madam Chair and everybody.

Jessie, welcome to Ottawa. There's a lot of snow here.

I've been involved in public service for about 40 years. I came out of high school, went to university and became a high school teacher. I taught at Bedford Road Collegiate, in Saskatoon. One of my most recent assignments was to work with the University of Saskatchewan. I'm quite familiar with what the northern Ontario medical team is doing here.

All my life, my public service has been in the field of education in some way or another. When I was looking at issues in terms of how I would capstone my career, Delbert came to me and asked me if I could assist in his community because he was the chief on this education file. We were looking at ways to become more engaged in K to 12 and post-secondary. I thought this would be a capstone opportunity for me to get one project, because I was part of the national panel that went across Canada to take a look at first nations education.

We had Bill C-33 fail in the Harper government, where we would've had education out of the Indian Act and the opportunity for indigenous communities to have control over this. That failed, so I felt this was an opportunity for me to be part of a stand-alone band that had an opportunity to take on something very special and dear to all of us in the first nations community, which is the education of our children.

I had an opportunity to meet with Peter and his associates and saw that they wanted to have a true partnership where we had to work together. This agreement was signed. It's good to see our friend Don Rusnak, who is from Treaty No. 3 territory in Ontario, I believe. He came out and signed that partnership on behalf of the federal government. We're a year and a half into it. We have another year and a half.

What we're looking for.... You'll understand this if you understand how indigenous community schools are funded. We're not looking for funding per capita; we're looking for funding per success. We believe that in the next number of years we will show—and we will show you through your questions—that by doing it right and having the right capacity inside a school system we can have success.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We're in the question period for members of Parliament. I would remind you that we have Jessie on the line, so please direct your questions, whether they are to our guest on video conference or to somebody in the room.

We'll start with MP Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I thank the witnesses for their comments.

My first questions are for Mr. Lafond.

The new approach to funding education on reserves will come into effect on April 1. Can you tell us about funding-related difficulties you encountered during your career, when you worked in education on reserves? What is your opinion about this new approach?

[George E. Lafond]

I would say that this is half full and half empty. I think Canadians have begun to recognize through the government that indigenous education is chronically underfunded. The new funding arrangement has come forward, where we actually now have what I often cautioned leaders about, provincial equivalency. I kept arguing that we were not looking for provincial equivalency, but in fact we were looking at the needs of the child. Every child has a special requirement based on the type of home or the community they came from. Being attached to provincial equivalency gives us a bit of a bump; there's an increase. However, if you really have the child focus, you have to go to what the child needs.

So I think in many ways it's half full and half empty. What I think we're all looking for inside of any capacity-building or any public institution, whether it's health care or education, is consistent, predictable funding. Unfortunately, right now most first nations schools operate—and Delbert can answer this—on a year-to-year funding arrangement. In order to have proper planning and proper predictability, you need to have long-term funding that is guaranteed. That way you can plan further, longer.

From my point of view, giving advice to the Thunderchild community, we certainly welcome the new funding arrangement. We've gone through it side by side. There is an increase. One of the biggest areas that concern us, though, is the issue of learning supports. This is where we're going to start moving into the issue of.... It's not only education we're worried about inside of our institutions, but also the health care of our young people. What we're seeing.... We've done this through the Calgary Academy. They've done the assessments and they've recognized that mental health issues inside first nation communities are very serious issues that reflect upon the ability of a child to learn in a very safe and secure environment.

It's not only education we're beginning to look at, but also child and family services. You'll see other programs you're quite familiar with, such as the Jordan principle, and we also welcome the most recent legislation on child and family services agreements. We think that when you combine those with education, you actually have an opportunity to support the child to have a healthy learning environment.

It's not only the education funding arrangement that we're looking at, but the other types of social supports that are inside the Indigenous Services Canada framework.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'd now like to discuss the issue of retaining talent on reserves. During testimony over the past weeks, we heard that the quality of employees' benefits was a determining factor.

In your opinion, what other factors adversely impact the retention of talent?

[George E. Lafond]

I think all of us in western Canada are facing this. There's a depopulation of rural Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, so it's not only first nation communities that are facing this issue of attracting talent, but even small towns and small cities.

This is why it's important that Thunderchild is seen as a leader in this. They have reached out to a partner who has the capabilities in another jurisdiction. I think that for too long in Saskatchewan, as first nation communities, we've been at odds with small-town Saskatchewan. While the small towns are depopulating, the population in first nation communities is increasing, so small towns are slowly dwindling and yet there is a first nation community that's actually building and growing. We're building schools, building health care facilities, and yet the hospitals and the small-town grocery stores are slowly flittering away.

I think what we're talking about is social capital. For all of us who grew up in Saskatchewan, we grew up in two solitudes, and now I think it's about time, as a new generation.... But it's very difficult because we're facing these issues of racism and discrimination. There is built-in racism inside the school systems, inside the health care systems. There's no disputing that, but how we begin to recognize the future depends on our ability to work together.

So I think in terms of building capacity and basically sharing responsibilities for our young people and for the future of Saskatchewan—certainly in the part of Saskatchewan we're in—we need to begin to build those bridges based on social capital. We're working together.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Istvanffy.

Headwater Learning Solutions, under the Indigenous Education Project, identified three main elements necessary for a holistic indigenous education model. These are: the creation of a teacher orientation program, the development of a literacy and numeracy program, and the implementation of modern learning elements to build a model more compatible with traditional indigenous ways of life.

Can you tell us how these components contribute to an enhanced education delivery system for first nations students?

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You have 30 seconds.

[Peter Istvanffy]

I'm sorry, but the interpretation is not working.

[George E. Lafond]

How do you create those programs for literacy and science?

[Peter Istvanffy]

There are a number of things involved, but number one is making sure that by the time students have completed grade 3 they can read at that level, because it's the single biggest predictor of whether or not students will graduate from high school. The research on that is unbelievable. That's number one.

Number two, one of the things we have to do around science and the whole STEM program—science, technology, engineering and mathematics—is to look at ways in which we can use technology-enabled solutions to build and deliver those types of programs. There are some excellent ones available out there. One of our challenges was that the funding didn't allow for the technology to be in the schools. It was just this last year that we secured additional grants to bring in laptops, iPads and the infrastructure necessary to deliver it.

We would see it as critical for participation in the 21st century, but part of it is having the resources necessary to do it. We have that in place now, and we're looking forward to what we can accomplish in the next 18 months.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You've run out of time.

We move on to MP Jim Eglinski. Welcome to our committee.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question will go to Jessie. You were talking about planning and the difficulties, and I think you were following on a very similar trend to what Theodore was saying earlier, prior to you.

There's a shortage of planners in many aboriginal communities. I was quite surprised when Theodore mentioned that he was looking after approximately 11,000 people on the reserve and a certain amount of acreage, and he was the only planner. When I was the mayor of Fort St. John, I probably had four or five planners looking after the same number of people.

I wonder if you could just stress that and tell me what kind of shortage you see and where you think we can improve.

[Jessie Hemphill]

There's a shortage of planners. I served a couple of terms in local government myself, and for our municipality, as you said, we had one planner covering a territory about one-fiftieth of the territory of my own first nation, which doesn't even have a professional planner on staff, so there's a huge deficit there. In planning in general, there's no designated funding outside of the land code process, the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management, for funding and support for first nations planners or land managers, so that's a big challenge.

I also think that planning in indigenous communities is very different from planning for municipalities. Of course, we're looking at different paradigms depending on what community you're talking about. We all have different customs. The Wet'suwet'en issues up in north central B.C. highlight different ideas of jurisdiction between hereditary leaders, elected leaders and staff—competing levels of jurisdiction.

I think there's a need to train planners who understand these complexities and are prepared to go into indigenous communities and work with the needs of a specific community. There are very few planning programs in general in Canada, almost none. I think UBC is the only one on the west coast that has an indigenous community planning stream, and I believe there are only eight students in that program. I'm a practicum supervisor there. Vancouver Island University has a professional planning program with a first nations focus as well, but that's it for western Canada, aside from Manitoba, which has some great programs, and then there's the east coast.

There's absolutely a shortage there, so planning often falls to folks who are economic development coordinators or capital managers, or it doesn't happen at all—or you're bringing in consultants like me, which is not necessarily cost-effective for the community, so more funding and support would be great.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

Now I'd like to move on to Delbert. Congratulations for stepping outside the box and looking outside of your community for help, and working with Peter and George. It's obvious that you guys had a good meeting that first session and came up with a great strategy. And hats off to you for having 100% graduation.

Your program must be unique. You're focusing on each student individually, I would think, if you're getting the results that you're talking about. But then we have the general program. There must be a greater cost to do what you're doing. I was wondering if you could tell us....

Delbert, you were talking about financial commitment, that it needs to be sustainable. The fact that you're getting it every year.... I think, George, you were kind of following through that.

Your program sounds great, Peter. I know it probably costs more than the general program does, but I wonder if you could give us a little comparison so that we can have an idea. If we can look at programs like these, then we're focusing on the individual students, to get them there. Due to the difficulties we're having on a lot of the reserves, I think it's very important for us to understand that there is a greater cost to meet.

[Chief Delbert Wapass]

That's a good question.

Quickly, again, everything is based on nominal roll. We get audited: these students qualify and those students don't qualify. You shake your head. You scratch your head. You figure out, okay, why are these students not qualifying? Here's what you get, and here's what you don't get, and so on and so forth.

When it comes to teacher capacity, you're balancing your budget based on years of experience of your teachers. Once they get to a certain year of experience, you have no choice but to say, “See you later. As good as you are, we'd like to retain you, but our budget doesn't allow that.” So you're constantly disrupting your program, and as a result....

When we look at the investment the Calgary Academy makes within the program, where's that investment going when we don't have the money to retain these teachers beyond the training they just received from the Calgary Academy? We are finding out that in some instances, the teachers, not realizing it—and this happens in every other school—are teaching 15 minutes out of a 50-minute program. Why is that? Do they recognize that? We also understand that they are dealing with a lot of social issues, and so on and so forth.

When our kids are struggling with suicide and so on and so forth, we come back to the very basis, and a very big part of our program is “Who am I as a Thunderchild citizen?”, and understanding their customs, their traditions and their ceremony. This is where the Calgary Academy comes in.

[Peter Istvanffy]

You're absolutely correct. There are more dollars involved in it.

The way it's working right now is that we generate, in terms of philanthropic resources, just over half a million dollars a year that goes into the teacher development program. Then Indigenous Services Canada is putting in about $400,000. So we're putting about $900,000 into the development of teacher capacity.

We are really working along the three levels, and we have multiple professionals working with them. We have teacher trainers. We have people who are familiar with the indigenous culture doing the culture development piece. They're typically academics from the post-secondaries. Then we have psychologists and other mental health professionals working with the teachers.

In addition to that, we got some additional resources last year through Jordan's principle and other resources to provide mental health workers to deal with a number of the mental health issues, etc.

We were in a meeting just last week. We said that by the end of the three years we'd be able to provide a much more precise figure of what it costs to generate success, because we're spending a lot of time documenting that.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you for doing that.