Evidence of meeting #152 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
This would appear to be consistent with some of the testimony, as Mr. Ouellette said. Certainly, we're pleased to support this amendment.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
I would agree. There is ample testimony to bring us down this road. However, I see an issue in the inclusion of references to concepts that aren't defined, in bringing in new concepts into the legislation, specifically “guardianship”, “minor”, or “adoption”. I would suggest a subamendment. I'll read that into the record and it could be assessed by members.
“(2.1) The placement of a child under subsection (1) must take into account the customs and traditions of Indigenous peoples, such as with regard to customary adoption.” That is a pared-down version that—
Liberal
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
I'd like to speak to it.
I actually like this amendment a lot, particularly because it uses the words “customary adoption”.
It was interesting, Robert, that you said we have to recognize customary adoption, and then it didn't say “customary adoption” there. I was going to make that point. I very much like this amendment to the amendment.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
It's a friendly amendment, but the friendly amendment has to be in black and white, says our expert.
Liberal
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Madam Chair, I just have a point of order.
I noted when we had an independent motion with a word change, there was no requirement for a written copy. I'm wondering if this is a consistent interpretation.
The Clerk
It was one word, and this is a bit more extensive. It's just to make sure that I have the whole subamendment all together.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
Thank you.
It's exactly the same until after the words “Indigenous peoples”.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
On a point of order, Madam Chair.
It looks like it's done, but I was going to suggest we move on and allow them to provide a written copy and then come back to it if necessary.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
A written copy has been provided and the clerk will read it out to all of us.
The Clerk
The amendment, once amended, would read as such: “The placement of a child under subsection (1) must take into account the customs and traditions of Indigenous peoples, such as with regard to customary adoption.”
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
To go back to the original concerns expressed by my colleagues regarding introducing concepts that weren't defined, I have a technical question to the clerk.
Have we actually done the same thing here in terms of introducing a new concept that has not been defined?
Liberal
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
In common law, from my research when I was a professor at the University of Manitoba, there is precedent in common law where judges do refer to it, and it is referred to in a few cases. The issue is often judges who are less experienced with indigenous law, especially in child and family law, are not always aware of some of that common law and so it becomes problematic for people then to.... Because there's no reference, they have a reticence or a lack of an ability to approve something, so it takes many court dates and lots of funds on the parts of parents in order to legalize themselves, because there is absolutely no reference.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
I see that we have a roomful of experts. Would the committee perhaps like to hear from a person who could clarify whether this changes the scope of our bill? Would that be acceptable? Thank you.
We would ask you to introduce yourselves, please.
Isa Gros-Louis Director General, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
I am Isa Gros-Louis. I'm the Director General for Child and Family Services Reform at Indigenous Services Canada.