Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shurenda Michael  Youth Leader, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society
Richard Taylor  Operations Manager, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society
Sarah MacLaren  Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society
Pamela Glode Desrochers  Executive Director , Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Society
Shawn Matthew Glode  As an Individual

4 p.m.

Operations Manager, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Richard Taylor

I agree with Sarah, in the sense that in Michael's community and in Eskasoni, and in Sipekne'katik, where Shurenda and I are from, while we experience the same sorts of trauma and the communities are responding in the same ways, the solution is not necessarily going to be the same.

Perhaps in Michael's community they still speak their language. Perhaps in my community many people are still traditional. In the Mohawk communities, they still are very tied to their old and traditional ways. In Sipekne'katik and in Mi'kma'ki, it is not like that: we are regularly attempting to return to our old ways.

Determining which factors are causing the greatest amount of trauma would be difficult when trying to employ a solution on a national scale. This is not to say that a national scale is not a possibility, because, as we see with the government and with the various tribes here in Canada, in some cases it applies to one tribe, and in other cases it does not apply. In Nova Scotia, we have a certain gas tax, and in New Brunswick that gas tax is not there, yet both nations, both tribes, are the same. We are Mi'kma'ki.

The government has perhaps inadvertently—hopefully inadvertently, although the pattern would suggest otherwise—caused dissension among the tribes themselves by offering certain things to one and other things to others, taking away things from some, and so on and so forth.

A national-scale solution can be applied only after all of the necessary rocks have been turned over at the local level, in order to finally be able to define what it is that can help and can work, with perhaps a range or a scale of possibilities within a national program, but the people themselves, aboriginal people, must be dealt with as one with the government. I firmly believe—and this is strictly my own belief—that we should indeed be viewed as one, because if we're not viewed as one, that's where we get into problems when one tribe is given something but there's nothing for another.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you for that, Richard. It goes back to what you said in your testimony. What works for you may not work for everyone, and it's a sort of a balancing of this collective action with individual needs.

In the short time you have, can you talk a bit about some of the best practices that LOVE has employed? I know that a lot of it is built on trust, but in this last bit of time, can you expand a little on some of the best practices?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

I'm going to dare to be flaky. Our best practice is to be human. Our best practice is to not be constrained by many of the constraints that other people who work with youth have. We hug our kids. We tell our kids we love them. We are on call to our kids 24-7.

We go to conferences with other youth service providers. They look at us like we are chickens with our heads cut off, because we don't operate in a climate of fear. We work with some very high-risk kids and we engage in behaviour that many people who work with young people would consider high risk, but we believe that's the way you need to work to get the job done.

Our best practice is to be human.

I'm sorry. That's probably not very helpful, but that's what we do.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

That's fine. Thank you for that.

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thanks.

Our next question is from Gary Anandasangaree.

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thanks to all three of you for joining us this afternoon.

I worked quite extensively with youth prior to my entry into politics, so I want to probe a few things with you. I completely agree with you that when you serve youth, you really can't have barriers, and oftentimes a lot of the challenge is that you have an ending point, and then there's no one else to take over. You almost need to have a holistic look at somebody's life in order to serve them properly.

With respect to the criminal justice system, I'd like to know about the type of work you do and what you think is working for the youth you're working with. What are some of the challenges? What are some of the structural challenges that exist in the criminal justice system for indigenous people? The numbers are just astounding with respect to incarceration of adults, and this oftentimes starts with youth. Could you give us a very brief overview of what you think works right now?

4:05 p.m.

Operations Manager, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Richard Taylor

Could you clarify the question, please? Do you mean with regard to the criminal justice system and what our experience is with it?

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

In your program, what works? What's something that works in your community that could potentially be used in other communities?

4:05 p.m.

Youth Leader, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Shurenda Michael

I would say it's not giving up on people. I'll tell you right now that when I started with Sarah and I got mad, I used to walk away and think that she was never going to see me again. The next week I'd come, and she'd hug me again.

I've been in programs in my own community in which I've been bullied and they've given up on me, and I thought, okay, this person isn't my own. She's not a relative of mine. She's going to give up on me. It's been eight or nine years now. Just don't give up on people.

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

Again, people don't like our answers because they want to be able to say, “How do I write that down? How do I roll out a national strategy around caring for young people?”

Time limits are doing a great disservice to our young people. If yo have programs that run short-term projects, let them go. If you want to address long-term systemic programs, stop running six-month theatre projects in communities that let the theatre runner make $20,000 and the community have a play, and nothing else.

Run long-term programs. If you want to know one thing that is working for lowering recidivism, that's one thing that's working. Another thing that's working, I think, is that, again, we allow our youth to make their mistakes and come back. We go to court with our youth. Our criminal justice system is racist. I'm sorry, I hate to use the word here today, but it is. I sometimes call myself the white shield. I put my little blazer on and I'm like, “Look, I am with this kid.” It makes a difference. We hate to think it makes a difference, but it makes a difference.

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Sarah, could you maybe just probe that? Do you believe that the factors that are used towards release, with respect to mitigation, are problematic when they're applied to specific communities?

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

Do you mean factors in terms of giving someone back their freedom?

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Yes, in terms of sentencing, in terms of a whole host of—

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

When we work with young people here, one of the biggest problems we encounter is breaching of conditions. If a kid commits a crime under the Young Offenders Act, and then they breach their conditions but they've turned 18 in the meantime, now they have an adult charge for a breach on what was originally a young-adult charge, and, as your esteemed colleague mentioned, now they have no job, because they're 18 and they have a criminal charge. It might not even have been a big offence; it was just they missed curfew or they didn't have their phone on when they were supposed to.

When it comes to release, I think the biggest challenge for anyone is having systems in place to support, to heal, and to care about their re-entry. I have picked up young people from incarcerated situations, and all they had was a bus ticket. Good luck.

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you. You mentioned earlier at some point that your grandfather was healed from the time that your mom grew up to the time that you were growing up. What does that mean in real terms?

4:10 p.m.

Youth Leader, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Shurenda Michael

Are you asking how he healed?

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

What helped him heal?

4:10 p.m.

Youth Leader, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Shurenda Michael

What happened with him was that, before I was born—and he admitted this to me—when he was growing up, he was a bad alcoholic because his father couldn't communicate with him. He was a bad alcoholic. He would chase alcohol all over the community. He told me this, and when my mother was growing up, that's what he was. He was the father who was the alcoholic. So my gran told him straight up that either he had to get sober or she and the kids were gone.

He chose his family over alcohol. It was tough, but he did it. When he died, he was 30 years sober. That's a big thing. People don't realize that we didn't always have alcohol; it was brought over to us. There's a lot of alcoholism in the communities, and a lot of people won't admit to their problems, but he did, and then he started communicating as he got older.

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

All right, we're finished there.

Thank you for the question and for the response.

We're going to move into the five-minute questions. These move a little more quickly, and we can fit more of them in now, so that's the good thing.

The first five-minute question is from David Yurdiga.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Richard, Shurenda, and Sarah, thank you for joining us today. Your input is very valuable to our committee, and we want to make things better through programming. We heard a lot about programming. What has been the most successful program in your organization to date? They are all important, but what was the one that made the biggest impact for youth?

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

We pretty much run one model anywhere we go, so our program operates on the same premises. I would say we run two in-school programs. I think our most successful programs are programs that are not associated with another institution. We can play by our own rules, and the kids who come to all of our programs come voluntarily. Basically, in our philosophy and our model, we don't really run.... We used to run a federal employability program, but that one got the chop. Other than that, we run the same thing everywhere we go. We just adapt it. So if it's for junior high school boys, we decide what would be important for us to talk about with them. We'll say, “Oh, Rich, we're coming to Sipekne'katik. How do we need to change our program and what we talk about in our circle?” However, our model and our philosophy, frankly, are what matter.

Shurenda, you have experienced both.

4:10 p.m.

Youth Leader, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Shurenda Michael

I started from grade 7, the junior high level. Then I went to the high school, went to the leadership of Sipekne'katik. Then I moved to Halifax for university, and it's pretty much the same aroma. When I was 15 in the LOVE program, one of my bullies from when I was about 10 apologized to me without any of us asking him. He just straight-up was like, “I'm sorry I hurt you when you were younger,” and I was like, “Okay, thanks.” It meant a lot. It's the same aroma around the different programs, because I've gone from Sipekne'katik to the leadership program in Halifax.

4:10 p.m.

Operations Manager, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Richard Taylor

The philosophy is trust because, as human beings, when we're born we intrinsically trust the body from which we're born. We inherently trust that. Once that trust is violated, that's when we run into problems. For many of our youth, regardless of whether they're in Halifax or in HRM or in Cape Breton—which is four hours away—or in Sipekne'katik, trust is the one thing that ties all of them together. They all have trust issues. Each of them has had their trust violated, and that is no small thing. A violation of trust is very traumatic.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you.

Another thing we heard from a number of our witnesses was that for these grants that each community has to apply for, a lot of times it takes so long to go through the grant process. Then you have such a narrow window in which to spend the money. Has this been a major challenge for your organization, receiving these grants and trying to spend them?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Leave Out Violence Nova Scotia Society

Sarah MacLaren

To be honest, I don't even apply for federal money anymore; it's too limiting. It doesn't allow us to work in the way we know is effective.

Rich and I had a conversation, and I said, “Don't worry if we offend them because we don't get any of their money now, and we may never. It's okay, buddy.” It really is limiting if you want to create long-term solutions. I really don't mean to offend anyone, but this is just the reality we're operating in. For a one-year grant, it takes eight months to find out if you're going to get it. Then you get one year, and your year-end is March 31. You want me to waste money? That's not our culture. We are penny-pinchers. We are fiscally very responsible. Then your program officer is calling and saying, “Well, you have to spend $6,000” and I say, “Why do I have to spend $6,000? We could do something next month with this. Let me keep it. I saved it because I was smart.”

Yes, it's very detrimental to good work.