Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2016

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

It's been two weeks since the Human Rights Tribunal ruling that Canada systematically racially discriminates against indigenous children. My office is flooded with calls from families saying that their children were denied medical services. We see documents saying that severely handicapped children are being denied services, but they say they will provide the services in the documents. The federal Department of Health says they'll provide those services if they voluntarily give their children up to foster care.

I'm asking, in light of that, have there been discussions between the AFN and the individual departments of Health, and Justice, and Indigenous Affairs about how this government will break apart that systemic discrimination and move beyond the nice words I've heard? What are the systemic changes that are going to be needed in the department? Have they begun to speak with you about how to dismantle the system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

A brief answer, if you would.

Thank you.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Preliminary discussions, Charlie, are happening, so the answer is yes, but we have a lot of work to do.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Next on the order is Gary, please.

Please go ahead.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Grand Chief and your colleagues, for joining us this afternoon.

There are a number of issues, and I want to start by probing the nation-to-nation question a bit further. I appreciate the way you've laid out your vision of what that means.

Do you believe the government is on the right track and is the government's vision in line with yours, or does the government need to look at it in a different way? I'd like to get your deeper thoughts on that so we have a very similar understanding of where we are, going forward.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

In terms of the nation-to-nation relationship, it's almost as if you need the constitutional process to start working toward...because in Canada, you have common law and civil law. Remember Charlottetown and Meech Lake? First nations governments were going to be recognized. I say they should be recognized as a first order of government, not as a third order of government.

What's the process to get us there? There has to be a process and that has yet to be established. That's where we have to start looking and start working toward that. It's almost like a constitutional working group, if you will, involving the feds, the provinces, the first nations governments. You've had section 35 since 1982. Is it a full box of rights or an empty box? The debate still goes on. We need a process to start working toward that respectful nation-to-nation relationship, again, getting first nations governments not as a third order, but the first order, and having first nations law and jurisdictions recognized in addition to common law and civil law.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Some have suggested the answer is to eliminate the Indian Act. I think you've suggested that it may be a work in progress.

How do we address the challenges within the Indian Act to make sure that going forward we also link to the nation-to-nation relationship? How do we do it, and what order do we do it in? Do we change the Indian Act now and then do the discussions, or do we do the discussions and have a parallel process? I think it's a very long and complex issue, but I would like to see, in your vision, how you think we should move forward.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

It should be in a very flexible way, in a very patient way. It's the simplest answer I can make. We all want to move beyond the Indian Act, no question. It's been there since 1876. It's 2016. But we need a process to move beyond the Indian Act. That's going to take some time. Out of the 634 first nations, everybody's at different levels. Some want to do it alone; some...there are other conglomerates when you come together that can possibly look at working beyond processes to move beyond the Indian Act, but those processes have to be struck, even in terms of treaty implementation.

Treaty 3 is working together strongly, but where is the crown to engage on a treaty enforcement and treaty implementation process? Treaty 4 is working together; Treaty 9 is working together. The Douglas Treaties on Vancouver Island are working together, but they want the crown to engage so processes have to be established for that. That's how I see that. Once the processes are established, you can start working toward moving beyond the Indian Act but having a flexible approach and a patient approach with it. One size won't fit all.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I believe one of the AFN's visions is with respect to education. I think you had said that first nations do not seek better education, that you seek the same, referring to the education that is provided to kids in the school system. With 50% of the population off reserve, I'm not so sure if that's adequate in terms of the school boards themselves, the kids who are part of the regular school system.

How do we incorporate cultural sensitivities or go beyond cultural sensitivities to make sure the young people understand their language, have access to learning their culture, and are able to be themselves?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Again, it's a two-pronged process. On the reserve you have to deal with closing the tuition gap, because on reserve it's $6,500 per child versus the provincial school system where it's almost $11,000 to $12,000 per child, versus the French school system where it's almost $20,000 per child for tuition. That has to be addressed. That closes the gap, so then you can pay the teachers the same salaries and you'll have access to the same extracurricular activities, plus math, libraries, and computers. All those things can happen. Close the O and M gap and the tuition gap.

Then you have to look at the capital infrastructure. You have to focus on the schools themselves on reserve. With the off-reserve school systems, the languages are important—on reserve and off reserve—because studies have shown that once a young child is fluent in their first nations language, by 12 to 13 years of age they're more successful in school and therefore more successful in life. Studies have shown that. They know who they are and where they come from and that their language is equally as important as English and French. That's validation; that's acceptance. You have to work on the on-reserve school system, but influence the provincial school systems as well.

This is why I work with the premiers. Why can't they declare the indigenous languages as official languages of the territory or state like they do in the NWT? Why can't they do that in Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta? That can happen.

It's a two-pronged strategy on the reserve. That's where the federal crown comes in, dealing with the tuition and capital structures needed for proper schools and working with the provincial systems as well, because 50% of our kids are in those systems, both in the Catholic school system and in the public school system. That's where curriculum is very important.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Grand Chief.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thanks for that, Gary.

Thank you, Chief.

Next in the order is David.

David, we're moving into the five-minute question and answer round now.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the national chief for being here today to give us an education. I've learned a lot of things that I wasn't aware of before, so I thank him so much for that.

I'd like to talk about a national inquiry. In March 2015 the committee on the elimination of discrimination against women considered the issue of violence against indigenous women in Canada, including missing and murdered indigenous women. The committee expressed concern over the disproportionately high rate of violence against aboriginal women in comparison with men and non-aboriginal women.

I've had many discussions with indigenous communities within my riding, and many individuals expressed that the national inquiry should also be expanded to include missing and murdered aboriginal men.

What are your thoughts on the national inquiry being expanded to include missing and murdered indigenous men?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

I think eventually we're going to get there, but not at this point in time.

The whole issue is about ending violence in our communities. That's the issue. This one with missing and murdered indigenous girls is first. It's a priority, no question. The number is higher than 1,200. It's greater than that. You know that.

Ending violence really becomes the theme and the issue. It doesn't only affect females; it also affects males; it affects families; it affects communities. Ending violence means addressing all the root causes of violence: poverty, disproportionate numbers of people in jails, family breakups, alcohol and drug abuse, overcrowded housing, and poor education. All those root causes have to be addressed. That's where my head goes right away.

When you ask about whether it should be expanded to include missing and murdered men, not right now. Focus on the women, because that's where it is right now. Eventually ending violence as a bigger theme will have to be addressed. That includes reviewing the whole justice system and starting to work towards a restorative justice system as opposed to a punitive justice system. That's a whole other dialogue unto itself.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I understand that if you expand it too much it becomes an onerous task. I agree with you, but that was one of the questions that was brought up while I was meeting with my different indigenous communities. I said I'd bring it up to see if there's anything in the works in the future.

I've always been of the opinion that the next generation and our future leaders should be involved in the advancement of our society at whatever level it may be. In relation to the national inquiry, do you feel that the indigenous youth should be actively involved? I've had a lot of young people say to me that they'd like to be part of it. How do they become part of this process? Frankly, I don't know how that engagement's going to take place, but they're asking, “How can I be involved? This is my history. These are my grandparents. I want to make sure that I understand and am part of it.”

I'm not sure how I can go back to them and say, “This is what we can do to involve you.” Are there any plans for involving indigenous youth?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

From the AFN's perspective, we have our women's council, youth council, and elders' council involved with our delegation. When we have a second round table coming up in Winnipeg on Thursday and Friday, the families will be front and centre, no question. That's the priority and focus. From our delegation, we do have our youth involved through the AFN youth forum, youth council. That's one step. It's one way of doing it.

We have to make sure that all the voices that want and wish to be heard do have a space. Again, in the terms of reference that are being developed, there could be a spot for that. We don't know what the terms of reference are eventually going to look like. All I'm saying is the AFN has included youth through our youth council.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Is there a website where the youth can access this information and put their ideas forward? Is there anything they can access? A lot of these communities are remote and they don't have the opportunity to travel to these round tables. Is there something that says that they can go to a certain place so their voice can be heard?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

It's all on our website. Look to my officials. We have our AFN website, Facebook, social media. Yes, there is an opportunity for inclusion and involvement.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

May I make a comment? A lot of my communities don't have the Internet. It's not the best in these communities because of where they live.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

That's a valid point.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'll try my best to relay that information, and I'll do what I can. Maybe I can express my concern through my staff back to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Okay, thanks, David.

Thank you, Chief.

Next up is Don.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

National Chief, thank you for attending here today. It's a pleasure to have you here. As Ontario's only first nation member of Parliament, I welcome you here today. I have a million questions, but I have to stay within my five minutes.

In my area, I represent Grand Council Treaty 3 and also the Robinson-Superior community of Fort William First Nation. I want to get back to the nation-to-nation process, because I'm still not clear in terms of where AFN sees their fitting with helping organizations like Grand Council Treaty 3 or the individual communities.

I understand that essentially you're saying you want to leave it up to the communities and the individuals, and if they want a group, then so be it. Where does AFN fit in terms of helping us, in terms of the federal government, and helping the communities to get started in this nation-to-nation process, or whatever process they decide to do?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Don, AFN is not a rights and title holder. Neither is the FSIN, and neither are tribal councils. It's the people, the first nations themselves, who are the rights and title holders. We're facilitators. In Cree, we have a word oskâpêwis; we're servants or helpers. That's all we are; that's all I am. You will notice I put the AFN on the bottom, not on the top.

We can help facilitate and guide in terms of government, in terms of engagement with the crown. If you're from Treaty 3, the Treaty 3 people are working together. The Grand Council Treaty 3 is a model, but where is the crown? Our treaties are with the crown. It's not enough just to have a representative from Indian Affairs come out on Treaty Day. Where is the crown? In Treaty 4—and it's similar in all the numbered treaties—“at a place or places to be appointed,” you will meet with representatives of the crown to receive your annuity payments and discuss all aspects of this treaty. That's what it says. Where is that process? So Treaty 3 is working out. They need the crown to engage.

This is a moment for the crown to revamp how government works and establish those processes, so that Treaty 3 feels that yes, they are working towards implementation and enforcement now, and the crown is working with them for that, according to the spirit and intent of the treaty. That has to be done wherever those treaty territories are working together. Robinson-Superior is starting to work together. There should be a process for the crown to engage.

That's my recommendation and advice to this committee. My respectful advice to the Prime Minister and his cabinet is find new processes of engagement. Even look at establishing a treaty commissioner again as an independent office of the crown which reports to Parliament, just like the Auditor General, just like the Privacy Commissioner, which are independent offices. That's how this country was founded, by utilizing a treaty commissioner on behalf of the crown, not reporting to the Minister of Indian Affairs or the Prime Minister, but to all 338 MPs, on behalf of the status of these treaties. That's what should be looked at as a new way of doing things—a new old way of doing things.