Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2016

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

One moment, please.

I speak a little bit of French.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You speak French very well.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Thank you.

I want to be fluent in two years.

You are very important to me.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

It's easier for me to speak French when discussing these kind of issues.

Once again, thank you for accepting our invitation.

I represent one of the two ridings in Gaspésie, in eastern Quebec. I am lucky enough to have three Micmac communities in my riding. During and after the election campaign, I had an opportunity to have several discussions with Chief Martin and Chief Larocque. Those insightful discussions have helped me better understand the issues Micmac communities are dealing with.

Something in particular struck a cord with me—the language issue. You talked about it earlier. There are at least 58 aboriginal languages, with different dialects. I would like to hear your thoughts on the measures that could be taken to meet the language needs in all communities.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

That's a good question regarding the importance of language.

One way of measuring, because they're all at different levels.... Studies have shown that out of the 58, only three will survive, Inuktitut, Cree, and Ojibwa. There must be a national revitalization strategy put in place. It would be great if the government would announce.... That's something we want to work on with Minister Joly and the Prime Minister, announcing a national strategy on the revitalization of indigenous languages. That should happen.

There should be strategies in place, and models, nation by nation. There are different systems or models that can be utilized to bring back and revitalize these indigenous languages, because they're all at different levels. Some have many speakers and some don't. You need a mentor tutor in some cases, someone who's fluent, matched up with a person who's interested in learning. You have different models that can be looked at. You have immersion programs that can be looked at.

There's a great language program right now in Victoria, at the Royal BC Museum. It's there and they have 34 indigenous languages in British Columbia, but they have a model there. I encourage everybody to go see it, because they're doing a great job of revitalizing and capturing. That should be done nationally, so the other 20-plus languages that are left out could be included as part of that.

There must be a greater focus. I would urge the crown, if it could expend as much energy and effort as it did to kill the language through the residential schools.... If it could expend as much energy as it did in that process, we would see a national strategy come forth because it's so important to our identify.

Our indigenous languages should be viewed and looked upon as Canada's national treasures, because they aren't spoken anywhere else in the world. They're here, and if you lose them, they are lost forever, and that's the travesty.

We must do as much as we can to preserve, promote, and enhance indigenous languages. I encourage the Mi'kmaq, the people....That's where our heads and hearts are with it. This is a big focus for all of us around this table and we should expend more energy to preserve it.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you. I know that Michael wanted to ask a number of questions, so I'd like to share my time with him.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you.

I appreciate your comments on language. My wife is enrolled in the language revitalization program and I can attest that it's a very good program.

I have a real concern over the issue of land claims and where things are going on that front. Even with some of the aboriginal governments that have settled land claims, we're still hearing a lot of concern over financing, funding, and pondering parts of the agreement.

However, there are still a number of organizations that want to find their way forward in terms of settling the issues that are challenging them. In the Northwest Territories, we have five major tribal councils that are in various stages of discussion on either land claims or self-government. They can't seem to find the resources or the time to really work in terms of what's needed in governance. They can't provide the people. They don't have the resources to provide programming and there are all these things in terms of housing and education. There's a shortage. All their time is being spent on land claims negotiations.

In my area, the people I represent.... There are many different organizations, but I also belong to the Dehcho First Nation and it has been in negotiations for over 20-some years. We want to see them move past that. I think modern-day land claims and treaties are the way forward in terms of reconciliation. If people can move into a governance model where they can focus and look at issues that are challenging to people and deal with it at the community level, that would go a long way.

Do you envision setting up a mechanism, such as has been suggested and even tried, a deputy minister oversight committee, board, or structure that would provide political connections to the process, where you don't just take a bunch of negotiators, give them a mandate, put them in a room, and make them stay there till they're done? Usually, they run into a real challenging issue where they can't make headway, yet they can't bring the leaders back into the room.

I'm hearing about all kinds of different options out there and there are some good ones. I'm not sure if your organization has looked at things of that nature.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

There has to be an option other than the courts. It's as simple as that. There has to be a political option put in place. It's not the courts, because it's costly and time-consuming, and that's not the answer.

Where is the dispute resolution mechanism that the crown should be putting forward? What are the terms of reference for that mechanism? Is it a senior cabinet oversight committee? Possibly, because we're asking for that to be put in place as well, in order to deal with all these indigenous issues from the five priorities that the Prime Minister outlined, but there has to be an oversight.

There should be new institutions of the crown established. That should be looked at.

Then again, I link it back to the laws and the policies that have to be updated. Why it's taking so long is that the current and existing processes were based on flawed policies. That's the issue. It's taking so long because the terms of reference, authority, and mandates are based on flawed policies. That's what has to change. There has to be a process clearly established to breathe life into these things. These are lawful claims. These are lawful obligations. The longer it takes to settle, the more money it's going to cost the crown. That's the way we see it.

There have to be processes established. It's not the courts. That's what has to be looked at: new systems and new processes, and new ADRs with proper terms of reference, authority, and mandates that have to be struck. You have to restructure government. You have to relook at even the cabinet, look at oversight committees, if you will, but linked to the PCO and the PMO. Those things have to be changed.

If I had a magic pen, I'd do it, but I don't have it right now. Soon, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thanks for that.

Charlie, thank you for allowing a full answer there. You're last on the formal order for questions, but we'll go to the top and see if people have more questions to ask.

Please go ahead, Charlie. You have three minutes in this round.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have two questions. They regard children. In the communities I represent, children are being educated in dangerous conditions.

In Kashechewan, we were meeting with the students and waterlogged tiles fell into the middle of the classroom in a talk about how they should be fighting for education rights. We had to move out of the classroom. In Marten Falls, I'm getting calls from parents who are terrified because their kids are going to school where there's no sprinkler system. What would happen in a fire? That would be illegal in the provincial system, but it's just another day at Indian Affairs. They don't even track the conditions of the schools they're supposed to be responsible for, so has the AFN looked at what it will take?

I really don't think our communities can wait any longer. They need the action. They needed it last year and they needed it the year before, but they certainly can't wait another 10 or 15 years until Indian Affairs gets around to fixing these things, because children's lives in some cases are literally on the line.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

All I can say is that I totally agree with you. The schools are in deplorable condition. There are health and safety issues that have to be addressed immediately.

We are going to continue to call on the crown to do that and to address those things. You're going to lose another generation of children if it's not addressed. That's not acceptable in 2016 and beyond. If you address the on-reserve tuition, you have to do the capital as well, and there are priorities and hot spots across Canada.

We want to work in partnership with the government to make sure that this happens sooner than later. That's the way you get kids out of poverty and people out of poverty: a good education. This is just not acceptable.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chief.

Here's one of the reasons I got into politics. I was working with the Algonquin Nation. We went to meet with an Indian Affairs minister, a nice guy, and we had a question. We thought we'd get an answer on it: why did they take a badly handicapped child out of the community? They wouldn't pay for special ed funding, but they would ship that kid on a bus, with an adult, across the border into Ontario to a provincial system, and then pay the full shot. The kid stayed out in the hallway all day with an adult watching him, and they'd put him back on the bus at the end of the day. We asked the Indian Affairs minister if he didn't think the money would be better spent in providing a special education service in the community. He wouldn't give us a straight answer.

I remember thinking that day that if that's the answer, then that's not good enough. Yet 13 years later, we have the federal government going to the Human Rights Commission on a case of denial of adequate special ed service. In the communities I represent where some kids are not even getting into school because they don't have the funding, they're being denied what every other child takes for granted.

Is the AFN a participant in this Human Rights Tribunal case? Have you heard whether or not the government is going to back down and stop fighting the children on this, or is this going to be another long-drawn-out battle like Cindy Blackstock's battle?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

The AFN is party to that. Seven years ago, the AFN and the Family Child Caring Society jointly made the case to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

When the decision came down on discriminatory funding practices, we knew that's what would happen, because that was the case: discriminatory funding had been in place. It was clear from the ruling that the crown has to change its practices when it comes to children. It's discriminatory funding. So we're pushing to make sure that's addressed. We're pushing as well to make sure the crown doesn't appeal. You talk about reconciliation. You talk about repairing the relationship between indigenous peoples and the crown. It should not be appealed, and so we're putting pen to paper to make sure that it's not appealed. We're doing that.

There's the issue, though, of Jordan's principle, and that's what should be respected, honoured, and implemented. It keeps coming back to that for children's care: make sure the child gets the services.

When it comes to special education, we were always the brown cash cow as Indian people, and our children would be classed as special education, special learners, because the tuition goes up from the $6,500 per child to maybe $10,000 or $11,000 per child. That's the system that was there, and that's what has to be overhauled.

It's not going to be enough just to increase the fiscal resources in place. The overall system has to be overhauled to start working in partnership towards Indian control in the educational question. We want to make sure standards are in place, but we need to respect first nations control. Our kids aren't dumb. They are valuable individuals. The way the system was set up they were the cash cows. That's passé now. We're going to move way beyond that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thanks, Charlie, for the question, and for the answer, Chief.

We've gone through our formal question order and we have about seven minutes left. I think we would like to make use of the next few minutes to hear some additional questions. I'm going to propose that we go to the top of the order, but feel free to pass if you don't have a question to ask.

Mike McLeod is at the top of the order, but he has ceded his time to Mike Bossio.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Michael, and thank you very much, Chief, for being here. As Arnold said, I'm very pleased to be able to address you this afternoon, and I really appreciate your taking the time to be here.

We have talked about education for the aboriginal community. Everything that has been discussed here this afternoon I agree with completely.

Another avenue that isn't discussed as much is that we also need to educate the settler population about the historical injustices, the plight of first nations and their cultural values. I want to emphasize the cultural values and the pride that should be instilled into all of our peoples with regard to the historical and cultural heritage of first nations, as they do in New Zealand, for example. That is front and centre in their nationhood.

I think to establish this nation-to-nation relationship it's equally important to make sure we educate our settler peoples as well. In the past, that's always been done by settlers. We've defined the curriculum. We've defined how we're going to provide education and the historical and cultural context, and we have done a very poor job of it. As an example, I reflect on my own education, and the lack thereof.

I know you have a lot to take care of on your own front, but are you in a position to assist settlers in defining a curriculum and in developing the necessary educational materials? What are your thoughts on that in general?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

That is a great question.

Educating the settlers: your terminology is interesting. When we deal with the premiers, we ask them to change their curricula, for sure, to teach treaties and inherent rights and aboriginal rights. All schools, for example, in Saskatchewan have to teach treaty rights for all of the treaties. It's starting to be the same in Manitoba. The curriculum has to be changed, not only on reserve but also off reserve, so first change it so that treaty and aboriginal rights and title are taught.

The second piece is to start changing curricula to teach the impact of the residential schools, the history of colonization and oppression, and the intergenerational effects of the residential schools. Those have to be taught in all the schools from K to 12.

That also has to be taught to the immigrants coming into Canada. What is in their orientation? They swear their allegiance to the laws of Canada. There is a recommendation in the TRC calls to action to swear allegiance to the treaties as well. So another piece would be educational awareness for the immigrants coming in, through the process of becoming official Canadians.

All 338 members of Parliament should go through a misconception training when they are elected as members of Parliament. I have been asked by certain members of Parliament to come to do a misconception training for them because they don't know anything about inherent rights or treaty rights or what this nation-to-nation relationship may look like. That has to be done as well.

I totally agree with the question. The curricula right now across Canada should be changed. There are some things that can be done from a national perspective for the 338 members of Parliament and for new immigrants coming into Canada. That educational awareness will lead to understanding and lead to action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you.

I think we have time for a final question, and this one, following the previous order, goes to Cathy, and we'll try to keep it short if we can.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I have just a quick comment. I was listening to the language. I was having a conversation with someone and partially in jest I said that one component of the strategy should be Rosetta Stone, and he said that there is one for Cree already. I said, “You're kidding”. Anyway, I think there are not only traditional ways but also opportunities to modernize. Children love that kind of piece.

I have to get back to my natural resources piece. I've had a lot of conversations and I would like to know whether you have taken a formal position. I can't remember what was in your position statements, but I know some groups are very interested in being supported in equity positions versus other first nations groups looking for what they call an aboriginal resource tax.

Could you spend a minute or two talking about both those concepts and where the AFN sits on them?

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

As the AFN, we support all of the above. We support the chiefs who want to look at equity ownership on some of the major projects. We look at some of the chiefs who look at an aboriginal resource tax. If a pipeline is cutting across Treaty 4 territory, as one was, we look at a Treaty 4 tax. About 10 years ago, all of the 34 bands got $100,000 from this pipeline company. It was money to kind of shut up and go away, but there was a Treaty 4 tax in place, so a precedent has been set.

We also support those ones that don't want this thing. We're respecting that.

As the AFN, we can't take a formal position either way. I'm going to keep facilitating the bringing together of these interested parties to find common ground. There's always the balance between the environment and the economy. That's our position as the AFN, to respect the rights and the rights and title holders. As national chief, that's all I can do. I can't say, “We're going to do this”, but I'm going to facilitate bringing people together, because we want to create the wealth and the jobs as well, but not at any cost. Having that balanced, long-term, sustainable economic development strategy is going to be our position going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you.

I said we would be done after that question. If we were following the order, it would be Charlie's question, however, Don has made a special request for a final question.

Charlie, I don't want to put you on the spot, but would you be okay with that?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

My concern is that we have to go in camera. I would have given up my spot to go in camera, because we have to get our business done, so my concerns is that I don't want to be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Okay. I see Don agreeing there, so that's fine.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have to get some work done, because time is ticking and we have a lot of stuff to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Okay.

National Chief Bellegarde, on behalf of the aboriginal affairs and northern development committee, I thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. LeClair and Mr. FineDay, for joining us. You've given us a lot to think about and you've provided some great resources for us.

[Chief Perry Bellegarde]

I have a question.