Evidence of meeting #35 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was status.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joëlle Montminy  Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Martin Reiher  General Counsel, Department of Justice
Candice St-Aubin  Executive Director, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Nathalie Nepton  Executive Director, Indian Registration and Integrated Program Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Effie Panousos  Senior Policy Advisor and Manager, Treaties and Aboriginal Government Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Stéphane Descheneaux  As an Individual
Rick O'Bomsawin  Chief, Abénakis Band Council of Odanak
David Schulze  Legal Counsel, Abénakis Band Council of Odanak

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

We'll come to order now. Welcome, everyone, to the indigenous and northern affairs standing committee. We are meeting today to hear testimony on Bill S-3, an act to amend the Indian Act, specifically the elimination of the sex-based inequities in registration.

We have two panels today. The first panel is with us right now. We are welcoming four officials from the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada: Joëlle Montminy, assistant deputy minister, resolution and individual affairs sector; Candice St-Aubin, executive director, resolution and individual affairs sector; Nathalie Nepton, executive director, Indian registration and integrated program management; and Effie Panousos, senior policy adviser and manager, treaties and aboriginal government. You are joined today by Martin Reiher, general counsel, from the Department of Justice. Welcome to you all. We're very pleased you're here with us.

We are happy to offer you 10 minutes to use among yourselves as you see fit.

If you are ready, we'll get right into it. Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Joëlle Montminy Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much. I'm Joëlle Montminy.

I am the assistant deputy minister of the Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector at Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada. You have already introduced my colleagues.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to be here today to provide this committee with information on the government's response to the Descheneaux decision. As you know, the response involves amendments to Bill S-3, an Act to amend the Indian Act, aimed at eliminating residual sex-based inequities in Indian registration, which will be followed by a collaborative process with indigenous groups on broader related issues.

I would like to say a few words on the Descheneaux decision.

In August 2015, the Quebec Superior Court ruled that the provisions of the Indian Act violated the equality provisions of the charter because they perpetuated residual sex-based inequities in Indian status.

The Descheneaux case dealt with the differential treatment between the male and female lines in the acquisition and transmission of Indian status relating to first cousins of the same family and siblings. As a result, the court declared several key provisions of the Indian Act invalid and suspended its decision for 18 months to allow time for the necessary legislative amendments. Canada originally filed an appeal, but the decision came down during the election, and the appeal was withdrawn in February 2016 by the new government.

In order to comply with the decision, legislation must be passed by February 3, 2017. In the absence of a legislative response by this deadline, Canada will be unable to register the majority of individuals seeking status in the province of Quebec and possibly in other jurisdictions as the key provisions in the Indian Act will be inoperative.

Last July the government launched a two-stage approach to respond to the Descheneaux decision. As part of the first stage, the government started holding information sessions with indigenous groups and introduced legislative amendments to the Indian Act through Bill S-3 to eliminate residual sex-based inequities in Indian registration.

The second stage will be a jointly designed, collaborative process with indigenous groups to examine the broader and systemic issues relating to Indian registration, band membership, and citizenship. The purpose of this process will be to identify areas for future reform.

Before examining the proposed amendments in more detail, I'd like to provide you with some background on Indian registration to better understand the context of Bill S-3.

Under section 6 of the Indian Act, the federal government exercises exclusive authority in the determination of who is an Indian. Eligibility for Indian status is determined on the basis of an individual's descent from a person registered or eligible to be registered as an Indian.

Prior to contact with European settlers, we know that first nations had diverse ways of identifying their citizens, including clan, kinship, and hereditary systems. These were displaced as a result of the introduction of the concept of “Indian” in colonial and then Canadian legislation.

Starting in 1869, patrilineal descent rules and sex-based criteria for Indian status and band membership were entrenched in federal laws, and continued under successive changes to the Indian Act. Under these rules, Indian women who married non-Indian men lost status, as did their children, and through enfranchisement, individuals and their descendants lost Indian status if they became a doctor, a lawyer, Christian minister, joined the military, or earned a university degree.

In 1985, the Indian Act was amended through Bill C-31 to comply with the charter. This was the first step in addressing sex-based and other inequities in Indian registration. As part of these amendments, Indian women who married non-Indians no longer lost status, and those who had previously lost status could be reinstated, as were their children. Enfranchisement was also abolished, and individuals who had previously lost status could be reinstated, as could their children.

The 1985 amendments also introduced categories for Indian registration through subsection 6(1) of the Indian Act, and also limitations on the transmission of Indian status after two consecutive generations of parenting with a non-Indian through subsection 6(2). That's commonly known as the second-generation cut-off. It's important to note that the second-generation cut-off rule was implemented in direct response to concerns raised by first nations during consultation on Bill C-31.

Finally, Bill C-31 also reinstated first nation authorities to control their membership through section 10 of the Indian Act.

Despite these amendments, some residual sex-based inequities stemming from the past were carried forward. New issues arose as a result of the introduction of categories of Indian registration—I've mentioned subsections 6(1) and 6(2)—that resulted in an increase in legal challenges.

The first case that was significant was the McIvor case, which was decided by the B.C. Court of Appeal in 2009. In response to that case, Parliament passed Bill C-3, the Gender Equity in Indian Registration Act, in 2011. Bill C-3 amended certain registration provisions to ensure that eligible grandchildren of women who had lost status as a result of marrying non-Indian men could then become entitled to registration, which is basically extending the eligibility to one more generation.

Following Bill C-3, the government also launched an exploratory process to gather the views of indigenous groups regarding issues related to registration, membership, and citizenship. Over 3,500 individuals participated in this initiative, and the findings revealed a myriad of perspectives.

This brings us to Bill S-3, which proposes amendments to Indian registration to comply with the Descheneaux decision and to eliminate all known sex-based inequities. Bill S-3 would amend subsection 6(1) of the Indian Act to extend eligibility for Indian status to descendants of the female line. These changes would specifically address issues relating to cousins, siblings, and removed or omitted minors.

This is a bit difficult to describe just in words, so later on you can consult the deck that we've provided to you and the comparator charts on pages 22, 24, and 26, where you'll be able to see the effect of the changes that I will describe.

The cousins issue relates to the differential treatment in the acquisition and transmission of Indian status that arises among first cousins of the same family depending on the sex of their Indian grandparents in situations where the grandparent was married to a non-Indian prior to 1985. This results in different abilities to acquire and transmit status between the maternal and paternal lines.

The siblings issue concerns the different treatment in the ability to transmit Indian status between male and female children born out of wedlock between the 1951 and 1985 amendments to the Indian Act. Indian women in this situation cannot transmit status to their descendants, unless their children's father is a status Indian. Indian men in similar circumstances can transmit status to their children, regardless of whether they parent with a non-Indian woman.

Guided by the advice of the court to not take a narrow approach in our legislative approach, a third issue has been included in the bill. It deals with removed or omitted minors.

Prior to 1985, registered minor children who were born of Indian parents or of an Indian mother lost their status, as did their mother if she married a non-Indian man after their birth. This is in contrast to their adult or married siblings, who retained their status.

While Bill C-31 restored Indian status to women and their children in this situation, it did not make eligible the children of the reinstated minor. The proposed amendments in Bill S-3 would address this issue and extend eligibility for Indian status under subsection 6(1) to the children of the reinstated minor child.

As would be expected, the proposed legislative changes will result in an increase in the number of individuals who will become entitled to Indian status. There will also be a change in the status category for some already registered individuals.

Based on demographic analysis, between 28,000 and 35,000 individuals will become newly entitled for Indian status as a result of Bill S-3. This increase will impact the costs of two federal programs that are directly linked to registration: INAC's post-secondary education program, and Health Canada's non-insured health benefits program for first nations and Inuit.

The government's fall economic statement released on November 2 identified approximately $149 million for the implementation of Bill S-3. In addition, the department is continuing its evaluation of the potential costs of the post-secondary education program.

Changes to entitlement for Indian status may affect funding over a longer term for other programs. INAC will monitor the impacts over time on the mobility of first nations who may decide to move to reserves.

As previously mentioned, starting in the summer of 2016, information sessions were held with indigenous groups, and we heard a multitude of perspectives. Some concerns that were expressed related to the short time frame for information sessions, the limited scope of the proposed changes, the impacts of accommodating newly entitled members, and the narrow focus on technical amendments that perpetuate colonial Indian structures.

Recognizing these concerns, the government is committed to the second stage of this initiative. The deadline of February 3, 2017, imposed by the court is insufficient to allow us to conduct meaningful consultations with indigenous groups to address all these complex issues in a short time frame, so in considering this, the government will launch the second stage in February 2017, which will be joint work with indigenous groups to address broader issues with a view to future reform.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much, Ms. Montminy.

We'll move right into questions now. These are seven-minute rounds of questions, and the first question is from Gary Anandasangaree, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you for the presentation and thank you to the panellists who are here.

I have some very specific questions with respect to the Descheneaux decision. You discussed the issue of omitted minors. I'm wondering if you could give us a sense of what other issues may be in the legal pipeline that could potentially have us revise the Indian Act again in the near future. Are there any pressing ones based on the Descheneaux decision?

3:40 p.m.

Martin Reiher General Counsel, Department of Justice

Mr. Chair, I will try to provide the information that I have. I do not have in front of me a list of the various challenges that we are aware of. I can point to a situation that we know about that is very complex to address: when mothers do not know the identity of the fathers of the children. This presents difficulties for registration of children. This is one issue that will need to be considered and could potentially lead to changes.

We are also aware of a proposed class action challenging one provision of the bill that amended the Indian Act in 2010 with respect to the possibility of claiming damages for the lack of registration prior to the enactment of these amendments.

At the moment these are the issues that come to mind. They are challenges to the act based on the Canadian Human Rights Act, which are similar to those presented under the charter, some of which will be addressed by these amendments.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

There is some mention here of the cost of $130 million, and I think the numbers we're looking at are anywhere from 25,000 to 30,0000 potential registrants. Would that include the cost of resolving a class action, or is that outside the scope? What are the underlying data behind these numbers?

3:40 p.m.

Candice St-Aubin Executive Director, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

It's outside the numbers that Joëlle mentioned in her speech and that you see before you. The $130 million from the fall economic statement was around programs per individual and it was related to the demographics. We did hire one of the top demographers here in Canada, Stewart Clatworthy, who was a witness in the case at the time and looked into things such as fertility and mortality rates, etc. He provided us with the numbers going forward, both in the immediate future, which was the 28,000 to 35,000, as well as across coming generations for 50 years.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

What's the range of responses you're getting from many of the communities, and what seems to be the prevailing sense with respect to this issue?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Candice St-Aubin

The information sessions have provided a variety of responses. There are those who are obviously quite happy to see us moving forward on this issue, having been denied from the previous round of amendments. Then again on the flip side we have those who feel that we've perhaps gone too far, that we're taking our own ability to have sole authority over identifying and registering Indians without having some meaningful conversation.

From what I've heard, the prevailing response has been the need to look at broader complex issues outside of only those identified in the case. That, I think, has been a consistent theme throughout our conversations to date.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

With respect to any resistance from communities in terms of accepting those who are newly registered, what are the mitigating issues you will have in order to deal with those challenges? If a community is not willing to accept a new registrant, what are the mitigations? What kinds of mitigations have you thought about?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Candice St-Aubin

That would be membership. We have two groups of membership. Section 10, where they have authority over membership codes, and section 11, those who are registered automatically for communities under section 11 will be included in the band membership. However, for those under section 10, that is outside the purview of the federal government, because we have devolved that authority and control to the communities themselves. If there are any challenges, it will be between the individual and the communities themselves, because they own their membership.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Going back to what other issues may be there, I know the Daniels decision is also something that is not directly related, but I know it's in the department's hands. What changes, if any, can we expect, or can we anticipate, with the combination of the Daniels and the Descheneaux decisions, where those parents who may be covered under the Daniels decision would...? Do you see any implications to that?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Joëlle Montminy

Not directly. As you know, the Daniels decision dealt with the division of powers, saying that non-status people fall under section 91(24), so there's no correlation to registration.

The connection might be that a lot of these individuals may decide to seek registration under the Indian Act, and if they were to be made eligible by these amendments, we would then be dealing with the same group of people.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Joëlle Montminy

You're welcome.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you both.

The next question is from Cathy McLeod, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thanks for the presentation.

First, in terms of your statement on page 7 that this would eliminate all known sex-based inequities, are you confident that we're not going to be looking at another court case and another piece of legislation coming down the pike? Are you confident that we have now taken care of this as an issue?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Joëlle Montminy

We are confident. With these amendments, we are dealing with all known sex-based inequities in Indian registration. That's not to say there are not other types of inequities that are going to be brought forward by various groups. We do have active litigation on this. It could relate to other types of issues. I mentioned, for instance, the second-generation cut-off. This is not sex-based. It's a policy choice that was made over the years to address the balance between individual rights and collective rights, and also maintain.... The concerns with respect to this particular issue will be ethnocultural erosion. For instance, at what point do you have to go back in order to address this?

In terms of your specific question for sex-based discrimination, yes, this bill is addressing everything that is wrong.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you.

You said you started holding information sessions with indigenous groups. Over the summer I met with a number of bands in the riding I represent. They showed me a letter that indicated the department would be reaching out to them very early in the summer. I think it was September and they hadn't heard a word.

Can you tell me what your process was for reaching out? How many sessions did you have? Where did you have them? I know they were very concerned that they had this letter saying they would be contacted early, and then they were left hanging.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Candice St-Aubin

I remember seeing the email coming in on that issue.

We started pre-engagement with the national organizations in early June, as well as disseminating information through the regional organizations. Given that there are so many individual communities, it was quite challenging to figure out the best way to do it.

Following the announcement of our two-stage approach, we worked with our regional offices as well to ensure that we were going to the right regional organizations. In a province such as British Columbia, there are three or four organizations themselves. We found that because of the number of engagements and consultations on indigenous issues under way in the federal government, we were trying to find the right balance and timeline. Some came online a little later. British Columbia, I believe, happened about three weeks ago. We went back two more times, and we're continuing to go out over the course of the winter.

In addition, we also try to share information from the minister herself with the amendments posted, attached to the letters, as well as posted online so that we can try to figure out the best way to get the right information to those who are most impacted and open to conversations and open to information and questions coming in. We still are doing that. Again, that started in the very late summer. We're continuing on in the same way of posting as much information as we can online, as well as trying to email and mail—any way we can to get information out.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I know this one particular band was very concerned that this is an important piece of legislation that had a very significant impact on them. It went into a great void over time. I think, rightfully, they were very concerned in terms of what the engagement process was, what the timeline was, and what they were led to believe it might be.

The technical briefing did not include numbers, but I see that there are some numbers that have now been attached to this proposal. I'm glad to see that, and that this $149 million has been identified in the economic statement.

If you look at the $19 million over five years to process and register, you see that works out to about $700 per applicant. I'm hoping that you can explain why $700 is going to be the ballpark of how much it will cost to process the applicants and what you're going to be doing.

3:50 p.m.

Nathalie Nepton Executive Director, Indian Registration and Integrated Program Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

The money isn't just to process the applicant. It involves the additional cost of, for example, opening up the envelopes, whatever additional costs are involved with processing the actual application.

As registrar, when I came on board, one of the things that fascinated me the most, both as a bureaucrat but also as a registered Indian myself, is the level of work that's often required in terms of doing the research. People send in the application, and hours and days are sometimes required to do genealogical research as well as assessing the individual's application, making sure all the necessary documentation is there.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

With the McIvor decision, you've had experience. I would hope that will help in terms of, if this legislation passes, how that will proceed. How many were impacted with McIvor? How many then became registered with the bands and how did you accommodate the bands that had this increased registration relating to that particular decision?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Indian Registration and Integrated Program Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Nathalie Nepton

In terms of individuals who were registered as a result of McIvor, Bill C-3, it comes out to, as of today, 38,467 individuals.

What I should say is that this only includes individuals who were actually registered. There's a whole other factor of applications that still has to be looked at, who weren't registered. We still have to go through with the whole work of assessing the file on an individual basis.

I'm sorry, I forgot—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

How many of them then became registered with the bands, and how did you adjust the bands' base funding to reflect that increased costs that they had if they registered with the band?