Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

We'll come to order.

This is the indigenous and northern affairs committee of Parliament. We're meeting today on the hereditary land of the Algonquin People, for which we're very grateful.

Today we're continuing our study of Bill S-3, an act to amend the Indian Act, specifically eliminating sex-based inequities in registration.

We have three 10-minute panels in this first hour, so we're going to try to move along really quickly, and I'm going to be quite strict with time so we can fit everybody in and get in all the questions we need to.

The first panel is the Assembly of First Nations, with three people joining us: Perry Bellegarde, who is the national chief of AFN; Denise Stonefish, by videoconference, who is the deputy grand chief, Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians; and also Stuart Wuttke, legal counsel, Assembly of First Nations.

Welcome to you all.

And without further ado, I'm happy to yield the floor for 10 minutes to you.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde, National Chief, Assembly of First Nations]

Chief Stonefish [Witness speaks in his native language]. Go ahead.

[Grand Chief Denise Stonefish, Deputy Grand Chief, Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about Canada's effort to eliminate sex-based discrimination through this latest amendment to section 6 of the Indian Act.

As indicated, I represent seven first nations, mainly in southern Ontario. I am also the chair of the Assembly of First Nations' Women's Council. This council is an essential consultative body of the AFN under its charter, representing the interests and perspectives of first nations women who are members of our 634 first nations across Canada. As chair, I participate in meetings of the executive committee, our chiefs in assembly, and other meetings, including presentations to parliamentary committees on occasion.

As we are all painfully aware, the Indian Act was founded on the goal of complete assimilation of first nations as distinct nations. Since 1876, the Indian Act has undermined our kinship systems, our systems of governance, and many other aspects of our lives, including by enabling the imposition of the residential school tragedy. A primary tool to achieve those ends has been discrimination targeting first nations women.

This is the third time Parliament has attempted to rectify the sex discrimination in the act. In 1985, changes made under Bill C-31 left the task incomplete. In 2009, the British Columbia Court of Appeal found that the combination of the two-parent rule, the hierarchy of different types of status under subsections 6(1) and 6(2) of the Indian Act, and the second generation cut-off perpetuated sex discrimination under the act. Now the Descheneaux case has forced Parliament to make a third attempt.

We understand the compelling need for the government to respond to the discrimination identified in Descheneaux. Unfortunately, Bill S-3 will result in continued discrimination. In addition, the proposed amendments in Bill S-3 will compound the existing complexity of the Indian Act registration provisions by adding three additional subparagraphs to paragraph 6(1)(c).

The basic approach of this bill is to continue arbitrary federal control over first nation identity and simply push the residual gender-based discrimination down one generation.

Our review of Bill S-3 suggests other discrimination that will not be addressed. Number one, under Bill C-3, which addressed the McIvor decision, a woman who regains her status is deemed to be under subsection 6(1), and her children would also be eligible for subsection 6(1) status, passing on through future generations. However, a woman who lost and regained status for any reason other than that addressed under Bill C-3 was deemed to be under subsection 6(2), disadvantaging any future offspring.

Number two, Bill C-31 attempted to address the decision of the United Nations Human Rights Committee in the Sandra Lovelace case, as well as charter compliance issues. Now, under Bill C-31, a woman who regains status is deemed to be under subsection 6(1). A person, male or female, who lost and regained status under any circumstance other than marriage, under Bill C-31, is deemed to be under subsection 6(2), and any future offspring may be ineligible for status.

In our view, Canada's continued imposition of a two-parent rule, combined with the hierarchy of status transmission established by Bill C-31 under subsections 6(1) and 6(2), lies at the heart of the ongoing sex-based discrimination. We note with considerable concern that there is apparently no remedy yet for the unfair and long-standing discrimination in the department's policies respecting so-called “unstated paternity”.

I emphasize that these are not usually situations of paternity being unknown but most often of a woman having other reasons for not identifying the father of her child.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you very much.

Chief Bellegarde, are you going to use the rest of the time?

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Very good. There are about four and a half minutes left.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Is that plus my ten?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

I'm afraid not.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Oh, boy. I'm going to have to go fast.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

I give thanks to the Creator for this day and acknowledge you all, my relatives and friends.

Moving forward, the AFN recommends that Canada work with first nations to undertake a joint review of federal law and policy and to work with us to ensure that all of this work includes a gender and citizenship lens.

Many aspects of the Indian Act constitute a violation of the treaties, the right to self-determination, and individual human rights, so much so that we must ask whether it is even possible to eliminate discrimination from an outdated piece of colonialist legislation intended to dismember our nations and citizens through gender-based discrimination and racialized concepts.

We have an enormous challenge ahead of us to move past this terrible legacy. I am sure you will agree that simply making amendments to the Indian Act will not get us there, and that whatever that path is, it must be driven by first nations and guided by our inherent and treaty rights and the minimum standards set out in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

I remind the committee that under international human rights law, the enjoyment of the right to self-determination and individual human rights are interdependent and inextricably linked. We are encouraged by the Prime Minister's leadership on gender equality, his unqualified commitment to implement the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and the enthusiasm of ministers, especially Minister Bennett and Minister Wilson-Raybould, to work with us to move beyond the Indian Act. That important work has not yet begun.

When we talk about status and citizenship, we have to move beyond the Indian Act, because if we remain under the Indian Act, there will be no more status Indians in 50 years. It's that simple. If we want to enjoy the right to self-determination—and we have that right—we have to exert that jurisdiction, occupy the field, and determine who is or is not a citizen of our first nations. That's up to us.

Despite the Indian Act, we say that it's imperative that Parliament and the crown work with first nations to build a new relationship in which first nations law and jurisdiction over our citizens are recognized and respected, as affirmed by the treaties, by assertion of indigenous sovereignty, and by the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The UN declaration sets out minimum standards for respecting the collective and individual rights of indigenous peoples, including gender equality.

Gender discrimination and denial of the right to self-determination are violations of international human rights standards, including those expressed in and reaffirmed by the UN declaration. The act has been used as a piece of forced assimilation and, as such, clearly violates individual human rights and undermines our collective rights to define and determine our identities as citizens of indigenous nations.

I'm going to cut through this because I have only...how long?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

You have two minutes.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Okay. I'm better when I speak freely.

In here, we talk about programs, and the government thinks it is going to make more status Indians because of this legislation. It's going to have a draw on two particular programs: the post-secondary student support program and the non-insured health benefits program under health and welfare. They've identified some dollars and resources here to take care of those new Indians, but as we point out here very clearly, where's the land?

You're only making half a treaty Indian. Okay, you have status now. You have access to these programs, post-secondary student support and non-insured health benefits. Under our treaty, we have 128 acres per individual, 625 per family of five. You're creating other land obligations, and that issue has to be dealt with. That can't be put to the side. You can't just say you are going to deal with female and male inequality. You have to deal with it comprehensively and fully. That's what I want to say there.

Now, under Bill C-31 and Bill C-3, we say that these amendments that create additional issues of treaty land entitlement, as I said, have to be addressed, and there has to be a meaningful dialogue beyond this committee. There's not enough time. Take the time to do it right. So we're going to keep pushing for that.

In Descheneaux, Justice Masse provided guidance to Canada stating that

it does not [however,] exempt Parliament from taking the appropriate measures to identify and settle all other discriminatory situations that could arise from the issues identified, whether based on sex or other prohibited grounds, in [accordance] with its constitutional obligation to ensure that [the] laws respect the rights enshrined in the Canadian Charter.

Parliament should not interpret this judgment as strictly as it did the British Columbia Court of Appeal’s judgment in McIvor. If it wishes to fully play its role instead of giving free reign to legal disputes, it must act differently this time, while also quickly making sufficiently significant corrections to remedy the discrimination identified in this case. One approach does not exclude the other. The AFN is ready to work with Canada to advance rights recognition and reconciliation through jointly designed processes to ensure the full implementation of the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and to carry out a much-needed and fulsome joint law and policy review.

That's it. We have to work together on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you very much, Chief Bellegarde and Ms. Stonefish.

We're going to hear from the other two panels, and then we'll go into combined questions.

Next we have the Native Women's Association of Canada. I'm very pleased to welcome Lynne Groulx, executive director; Francyne Joe, president; and Marilee Nowgesic, special advisor and liaison.

Welcome to you all. You have 10 minutes to share among yourselves as you would like.

[Francyne Joe, President, Native Women's Association of Canada]

Thank you.

I am Francyne Joe, president of the Native Women's Association of Canada, and I'm a proud member of the Shackan first nation located in Merritt, British Columbia. While I worked for Canada Border Services for over five years, I'm also experienced in human resource management, economic development, entrepreneurship, and insurance, all in an effort to educate and encourage aboriginal people to pursue their aspirations.

I'm here today with Lynne Groulx, NWAC executive director, and Marilee Nowgesic, NWAC's special advisor and liaison.

First, I would like to acknowledge the Algonquin nation, whose traditional territory we are meeting on today. I bring with me the voices of my ancestors, the concerns of aboriginal women from across Canada, and the hopes of our future leaders, our youth.

Since 1974, the Native Women's Association of Canada has been the only national aboriginal organization in Canada that represents the voice, the interests, and the many concerns of aboriginal women. NWAC is made up of 12 provincial and territorial member associations from across the country. Our network of first nations and Métis women spans the north, south, east, and west into urban and rural on- and off-reserve communities. Our personal sense of identity is that we are part of nations, and NWAC needs to be part of any nation-to-nation discussion. It's crucial that our gender-specific perspectives be heard and acted upon. The Native Women's Association of Canada recognizes the Government of Canada's stated commitment to end all of the known sex-based discrimination that is embedded in the Indian Act. This is a long-standing priority issue. It could result in missed opportunities to build our collaborative relationship and to ensure that we deal with the complex layers and multiple forms of sex discrimination in the Indian Act.

There are three key messages I want to deliver today.

First is the current backlog on registration and membership at INAC. Bill S-3 leaves out indigenous women, and their basic rights are being denied. This is a fundamental breach of their rights to entitlements under the Indian Act, such as housing, education, health, and economic development. From a traditional understanding, indigenous women cannot be separated from the impacts of colonization, systemic issues, and the policies and laws that have reduced the stability of our environment, the practice of our spirituality, and the expression of our inherent right to self-determination. We want to caution the government about the timeline. Indigenous women have multiple priorities at this time of the year. Children are in school and have extracurricular activities. Women are preparing for the harvest, hunting, and traplines. They're preparing for Christmas holiday celebrations with family and friends.

Second is that engagement does not mean consultation, and consultation does not mean consent. Indigenous women need to lead these discussions. The two-part process, as described by the Government of Canada, is to be in reconciliation with indigenous peoples through a renewed nation-to-nation relationship, based on the recognition of rights, respect, co-operation, and partnership. As of September 28, we have had only one information session by department representatives. This does not constitute engagement, partnership, or respect.

The government has already announced that it will have a two-stage approach in response to the Superior Court of Quebec's decision in the case of Descheneaux, and this must be done by February 3, 2017.

NWAC is particularly looking forward to addressing not only the systemic issues but also the impact those issues have had on indigenous women. As I've said before, these include our personal sense of identity, since we are also part of the nation; the lack of belonging and recognition experienced in some communities when women want to return to their home community; the undermining of indigenous women's governance roles and the ability to coordinate collections of issues; and the financial under-resourcing of our organization. NWAC is the organization that has the expertise on indigenous and gender-specific perspectives.

Third is that indigenous women themselves have the right to determine their own identity. Articles 33.1 and 33.2 of UNDRIP regard indigenous peoples' rights to determine their own identity and the structures of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures; of course, this is paraphrased.

As a national aboriginal women's organization that has spent over 10 years being undermined and ignored, and having our funding cut by 60% by the federal government, NWAC is in the process of actively rebuilding our capacity to substantively respond and coordinate a national response within a short timeline. Our current rebuilding status needs to be factored into the engagement processes at this time and should not be used as a way to undermine our participation in these key discussions and decisions.

While we are currently working on addressing the procedures and processes that will drive the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry commission, we are the lead organization for indigenous women to bring their issues, their concerns, and sometimes their missing voices to effectively address the inequities.

NWAC will work with all levels within the Government of Canada to end the inequities and discrimination that have been part of the Indian Act since 1876.

Kukwstsétsemc. Meegwetch.. Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you, Ms. Joe.

Is there anyone else who will speak on behalf of NWAC at this time?

Okay, then we'll move right into the next and final panel, which is Quebec Native Women Inc. We have Viviane Michel, the president, and Cynthia Smith, the legal and policy analyst coordinator.

Welcome to you both. Thank you for being with us. You have 10 minutes between you to share as you would like.

Thank you.

[Viviane Michel, President, Quebec Native Women Inc.]

[Witness speaks in Innu]

Good afternoon, everyone. I thank the Creator for having brought us here, and I also wish to acknowledge the vast non-surrendered Algonquin territory we are on.

Ladies and gentlemen members of Parliament, Kwe. The Quebec Native Women's association wishes to acknowledge the Anishinaabe Nation that welcomes us today on its vast non-ceded territory. Today, this welcome has particular significance, given the recent events in Quebec. It was on Anishinaabe territory that aboriginal women courageously denounced the abuse and violence there were subjected to by Sûreté du Québec police officers. The Quebec Native Women's association reiterates its message: we believe these women, and we demand an independent provincial judicial commission of inquiry in Quebec. IKWÉ solidarity.

Quebec Native Women Inc. is an organization of aboriginal women that has worked to put an end to injustice since 1974, so that our children may grow up amongst their own people and know their language, culture and traditions, and be proud of them. Since 1974, Quebec Native Women Inc. has been fighting against policies intended to assimilate our peoples, and against sex-based discrimination, that constitutes the basis of the Indian Act. Still today, in 2016, our societies are being torn apart by this.

According to the aboriginal oral tradition of the pre-colonial era, life between men and women was well defined. Although our roles were different, there were valued equally. There was mutual respect between the sexes and the generations. Aboriginal women benefited from a level of respect, equality and political power that European women of the the same era could only dream of. Several aboriginal societies were in fact matriarchal and matrilinear.

As you know, that balance between the sexes was violently destabilized by the colonial policies that were subsequently put in place deliberately by Canada. Colonization had devastating effects on our peoples, due notably to increasingly aggressive assimilation policies. These targeted our women and children in particular. The Canadian government was well aware of the importance of women in our society, particularly their role in passing on knowledge. It knew that to achieve its objectives and to eliminate the “Indian issue” and the Department of Indian Affairs in Canada , it had to uproot our peoples and tear us away from our lands and traditions.

It was expressed quite clearly in black and white that this law was created to accelerate territorial dispossession and decrease the number of aboriginals in Canada. In its annual report in 1895, the Department of Indian Affairs clearly expressed its intent to target our languages in order to assimilate us as peoples. To reach that objective the government intended to target the pillars of our societies, our women, who passed on knowledge to our children, the future of our societies.

The Indian Act served as a tool to achieve that by defining in a patriarchal and paternalistic way who was recognized as an “Indian” in Canada. During the 1800s, only those whose fathers were aboriginal were considered “Indian”, and any woman who married a non-aboriginal lost her aboriginal identity under the law.

It was this same law that imposed the residential school system on us. Its purpose was, and I quote, to “kill the Indian in the heart of the child”.

This law was built on a foundation that sought the abolition of our societies by attacking our women and children, as well as the transmission of our cultures, languages and way of life.

If Canada sincerely intends to bring about reconciliation with aboriginal peoples, it must be accountable and accept history and its repercussions on our current societies. Quebec Native Women Inc. believes that it is impossible to achieve reconciliation if our relationships are governed by a law that does not give us the right to determine our own identity, keeps us in wardship, and is based on racist and discriminatory principles.

Since the beginning of the 1970s, there have been court challenges to the Indian Act. After the very long and worthy battles led by Ms. Mary Two-Axe Early, Ms. Jeannette Corbiere Lavell and Ms. Sandra Lovelace Nicholas, Canada, that refused to recognize the sex-based discrimination of the Indian Act, saw its decision invalidated at the international level by the United Nations, which asked it to amend this act.

In 1985, Bill C-31 was passed to alleviate this discrimination. However, it did not put an end to it. On the contrary, it created new ones. It led to the creation of two categories of status. Status aboriginals were now divided into two groups: the one described in subsection 6(1) and the one described in subsection 6(2). This is painfully close to eugenics. These provisions inserted into the Indian Act the concept of the purity of bloodlines that once again divided our peoples and imposed a foreign system on our ways of governing.

In 2011, Sharon McIvor continued the struggle by standing up to sex-based discrimination due once again to the Indian Act. This led to Bill C-3, which failed to put an end to these years of discrimination.

Here we are together again today in 2016 to deal with these same issues. Quebec Native Women Inc. is asking you, ladies and gentlemen, to acknowledge the absurdity of the current context and the insidious nature of exercises like this one.

Quebec Native Women Inc. wishes to highlight the courage and perseverance of the women and men who waged these legal battles, but is forced to recognized nevertheless that each of these amendments was only a small bandaid on the serious and gaping wound of the cultural genocide attempted by Canada on aboriginal peoples.

Quebec Native Women Inc. wishes to remind Parliament of article 33(1) of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which establishes that “indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions.”

Indian status, that has been divided into categories and is awarded according to criteria that will remain sexist even after the current proposed changes, represents a blatant violation of this right we have to decide who we are.

In 2011, our association held a gathering of the nations where the theme of identity was discussed with its members. Together, they expressed the nature of language, culture, belonging to a territory, values and traditions that are the markers of our identity and indigenous citizenship, and not blood quantum or the number on a card issued by the Government of Canada.

In today's context, Quebec Native Women Inc. is asking the Government of Canada to eliminate once and for all the discrimination practised against aboriginal women, including those who, for several reasons, do not declare the paternity of their child.

We also ask that the women who have suffered from discrimination since the period before 1951 may recover their status before it is too late for them.

Finally, we ask the government to eliminate the categories of status that set registered aboriginals apart and give rise to a contemptible and discriminatory hierarchy based on racist and shameful criteria such as the purity of blood.

Quebec Native Women Inc. is asking the Government of Canada to allow first nations themselves to determine who they are.

Given the government's intent to begin the second phase of the work in February 2017, the Quebec Native Women's association is proposing its collaboration with you in this process. We have expertise on this issue developed since 1974, and we believe that we can make an important contribution to reconciliation for the future of our peoples, of our women and children, for the next seven generations.

I would also like to say that we are going to run out of time to consult the 54 aboriginal communities of Quebec. This process is really inadequate. Our organization, Quebec Native Women Inc., met with representatives of the department. I invited them myself to come to our general assembly to discuss the Descheneaux decision, but only 66 women will be present. There are 54 communities to consult. The process is not adequate.

Thank you. Tshinaskumitin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, AFN, NWAC, and FAQ, for your testimony. We'll move swiftly into questions now, so that we can make the most of our remaining half-hour.

This is a round of seven minutes of questions.

The first question is from Michael McLeod.

Go ahead, please.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for coming here to make a presentation.

We've had a couple of presentations already, and the whole issue has been described as complicated and complex. I don't think there is any aboriginal person who is not affected by this bill. I'm from the Northwest Territories. We have five tribal councils there, and a large Métis population, and we're all impacted somehow by this issue. As Perry described it, it was a tool to create assimilation. We heard from Justice Murray Sinclair that residential schools were doing the same thing. So this is an issue that's been around and that has challenged us for years.

It has impacted me and my family. I have cousins who have status and cousins who don't have status. I really can't explain why. It's been very difficult to go up the ladder and say they are brother and brother, but why did it fall to different parts?

We know there were other influences. We know that the government played a role in it. We know the church played a role in it. A lot of times they were the ones deciding who was going to fit into what category. Even people from the Hudson's Bay, and those types of people, had a role to play and decided where we were going to end up.

When I heard and saw that we were moving forward on this bill, I thought the same way I think most of you did, that it doesn't go far enough. There are so many things we have to address. But having looked at it further and having seen that there's a two-stage approach, I think we need to just move forward with this. There is some merit to this bill. I am very worried that if we are going to try to engage in a full-blown consultation process to discuss all the issues, we may be going for many years. I think this process from the time it was initiated to now has taken six years. We may be in another government by then if we take the same amount of time.

We are part of the suicide study and we know already that many components need to be addressed to start solving the despair in our communities; and if one piece were brought forward, I would probably welcome it. If housing were brought forward as part of the solution, I would welcome it.

My question is along the lines of what the Native Women's Association said, that this is only the beginning; it has to lead into something bigger. I'll ask the question to all three.

Do you agree that this should be dealt with now, or should we just completely hold off and try to do a comprehensive investigation of what needs to be done? We could go way back. I think you can tell how I feel, how I'm positioning myself on this. It may go back so far that it will take years and years.

I would like to hear what you think.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Ladies first.

[Francyne Joe]

We know how much the Indian Act has affected our families, our people. At this point, my biggest concern is our youth. When we had the delegation come to the NWAC AGA in September, one of my own delegates from B.C. brought up the fact that her son had not received a status card. All his cousins had. It took weeks after that. He finally got his status card. He finally got the benefits he was entitled to. He got the benefits that his cousins had been receiving for the last 10 years. So for us to postpone this at this point would be unfair to our youth.

Already, so many women have been working on this. Jeannette, Sharon and so many mothers have been trying to pursue this for their children. I don't think we can wait.

[Viviane Michel]

From what I hear, you want things to move forward. As I said earlier, a better consultation would be ideal. In Quebec, there are 54 communities and an urban population. How can we discuss issues you may not even have heard about?

We need to take the time to examine these issues. You always come forward at the last minute. Then we have to react quickly, but we have not had the time to hold these consultations.

Quebec Native Women Inc. represents the 10 nations of Quebec, including the urban population. As the spokesperson of my organization, how can I take on cases I may not even have heard about yet?

There are many cases. I spoke to you earlier about the declaration of paternity that is imposed on us. This has major repercussions for our future generations. A Quebec woman who does not disclose paternity suffers no consequences: the child is recognized as a Quebecker and a Canadian. However, if an aboriginal woman does not declare the father, she is automatically subject to subsection 6(2) of the Indian Act, and the child is recognized as having a non-aboriginal father. This is another type of discrimination that still exists.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you.

We'll move to Chief Bellegarde now, just briefly.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

On this, it's a decision by the Québec Superior Court. They said they have until February 3 to fix it. You have that over your head. If you want to get an extension, then the crown and Canada must meet with Descheneaux and go jointly together.

I would encourage that. I would encourage the crown and Canada and Descheneaux to ask for that extension. On this piece, with all due respect, Chair, that's number one, because there's no adequate consultation piece or process. I'd encourage that to happen.

The second point is that if you don't do this properly...and it's all about moving beyond the status card. You need a longer process to move beyond the Indian Act. I would encourage this honourable committee to encourage the federal crown and this existing government to encourage a comprehensive federal law and policy review and to put processes in place to move beyond the Indian Act. That's the bottom line. I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you.

The next question is to Cathy McLeod.

Go ahead, please.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I remember way back in the 1980s, I was a nurse working in a community, and I went to visit one of the elders. She told me she wasn't an Indian anymore. They had taken her card away because she married a white man. He had died and she was living in the community. I can remember at the time thinking that it didn't make any sense. She was clearly a member of that community. Since she was an elder at the time, I don't know if she lived long enough to regain her status.

We had our first hearings on this issue on Monday. To be frank, the Liberal government has said very nice words in terms of the process that they're going to engage in as they bring forward legislation. I was stunned to hear from Chief O'Bomsawin and from Stéphane that they hadn't even been consulted. These were the litigants in this case. It was stunning, in terms of the process, to see the failure to reach out even to the people who were the litigants and the chief who was a litigant in this case in any way to develop this legislation.

We can talk about process. I think that's an important conversation for us to have about what happened around this bill.

The legislation before us clearly responds to those specific circumstances. We understand that there are other limited circumstances that have not been addressed. If there is a big issue to deal with as well as those other little circumstances before the government heads into its phase two, I'd like to hear whether we should be dealing with those ones that we're aware of, that are in addition to what's here in the Indian Act. Should we be moving forward with what's here?

I open that up with regard to both the process and the next step.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Again I go back to saying you need more time to get it done right, even though there is that court order. Bill S-3 is there; you're making amendments now to the Indian Act.

The issue is the Indian Act. You're tinkering with the Indian Act right now; that's what you're doing. A court told you that you have to tinker with it because there is unfairness and there is injustice there between male and female, and you're trying to correct that. I get that; you're trying to fix it. You're putting a band-aid on a great big cut, and it's very temporary.

You have to move beyond the Indian Act and start recognizing the right to self-determination and look at things like whether someone will no longer be a Cree indigenous person if the Indian Act is done away with tomorrow and they lose their status card. Our rights don't come from the Indian Act. We have inherent rights and we have a treaty relationship with the crown, and we have to exert jurisdiction over our own citizenship. But that also has to be linked to a new fiscal agreement on total population on and off the reserve. There is an issue of portability of rights to services and programs. You're not a treaty Indian only if you live on Little Black Bear. In the Corbiere decision, chiefs and councils represent all their people, on and off the reserve. Now there is going to be the issue and expectation of portability of services and programs and rights.

You can't just tinker with this; it has to be more comprehensive, and it's going to take some time.

I offer four points: longer consultation time to get it right; support a law and policy review. All of the outdated laws and policies that this government has, from compensation claims to specific claims to additions to reserve to the inherent right, are based on termination of rights and title, not on recognition. We have to exert jurisdiction over our own citizenship; that's what we have to do, but it has to be linked to a fiscal relationship with the crown, which we're working on. And then, don't forget the land issue.

I remember that in 1985, when Bill C-31 came in, all of our chiefs said that the crown was just making half a treaty Indian: you get this status card and you have access to the post-secondary funding programs, and then you get the non-insured health benefits through Health Canada, but where is the access to land? If you're going to do this, do it properly and comprehensively. That's my advice—four points.