Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2017

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. North Wilson, thank you for being here and for participating in our committee's work. I know the preparation must have taken quite some time.

You mentioned earlier the impact, in 2011, of the default prevention and management policy's implementation.

Since our government took office, have you noticed any changes in the government's culture when it comes to managing funding agreements made with all the governments, for example in northern Manitoba? Is our government showing more openness to discussions? Has our government managed to establish the mechanisms needed to improve agreements and ensure that transfers of funds are more effective and better focused?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

Are you talking about the Liberal government?

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Well, our government.

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

Okay.

I would say that [Witness speaks in Cree]. Translate that.

I see a little bit of change. It sounds like the willingness is there but at the same time we're not seeing a lot of evidence of that talk. I can say there is a level of respect for our first nations from this government, from the previous one—especially from the previous government. I think anything compared to the previous government looks a little better the next day. I can definitely say there is a level of respect and at least a willingness to collaborate now. I think we need to see more. We need to see action. We need to see real commitments and better management of the spending that didn't happen. We need to start to address why that money was held back in the first place, and yet our communities are still suffering in extreme poverty and from lack of resources.

I think the willingness is there. We need to bring it out more and see real commitments. I don't have a lot of hope in the budget. I don't know if anyone ever really does. I'm always cautiously optimistic. I always have to look forward. At the same time we're so used to a lack...and false promises that it's hard to completely jump in and celebrate a lot of the decisions made at this level.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In your responses and opening remarks, you mentioned many infrastructure projects, which aim in particular to ensure the supply of drinking water or provide housing.

The leaders of your organization represent the interests of 30 communities. Will they need to face many other challenges?

I agree that your needs are critical and require funding. What mechanisms would give you access to funding to complete major infrastructure projects, such as the projects I just mentioned?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

I think we need people who have engineering and economics degrees to figure out the mechanisms themselves, but some of my communities are short by 500 houses and some by 1,500 houses, just to catch up to the waiting lists. That reflects the high needs in our reserves.

In some places three generations live in one three-bedroom house, and the house is deplorable in the first place, with poor insulation and poor windows. People end up getting sick, and it raises the cost of health care in our communities. It even puts people in danger.

Last Christmas I had to deal with a house fire in my own community when three people died. They were living in a house that was so old it was there when I was a teenager, and it was already really old back then. The family who lived there moved to a different house but there was not enough room in that house and they had to live in the old house too. They couldn't completely abandon the old house because they needed the space. They died in that house because there was no maintenance of a proper ventilation system and the wood stove they relied on collapsed.

We definitely need a mechanism and a better plan to build more housing in our communities and even schools and hospitals. Some communities are also dealing with expanding their community boundaries. For example in War Lake they've been asking the government to expand their territory so they can build more housing, so they can bring more people home. They don't have the land capacity to build any more houses so people are forced to live in other urban centres; they're suffering over there instead of being at home in their own community.

There are many factors.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move questioning to David Yurdiga.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us this morning.

My understanding is that MKO eventually wants to dismantle the Indigenous and Northern Affairs department and repeal the Indian Act and transfer government programs related to funding directly to Manitoba first nations. Do you believe this will reduce the number of first nations communities under third party management?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

I think that's an odd question because the decision to put people in third party management is based on government policies, and you're talking about something else on the capacity part that seems to be lacking.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'll rephrase it. If we provided more funding to first nations to allow more ownership, that would probably reduce the number of first nations communities under third party management.

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

Yes, I think the more we build capacity and accountability in our first nations, the better. As I've said before, we operated and lived under our own laws and our own leadership for thousands of years before colonization, and we managed to survive. I think we forget that in the short time we've been a nation called Canada. We have to go back to some of the laws that our elders in our first nations already live by but are not allowed to operate under because of the Indian Act and the other policies that govern our first nations.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

From my experience, some communities are more successful than others, but it seems that the more isolated the community, the bigger their challenge. Is there a difference in funding? Is more money allotted for communities that are further north and more isolated? We see one community that's doing very well and then you see another that's isolated and is not doing as well or does poorly. You look at the cost of getting products in. The cost of everything goes up. Is there any mechanism through INAC that compensates for that differential?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

For the most part, no. But I know that there are sometimes what's called a northern post allowance for federal workers and others who get extra funding to buy the expensive food in our isolated communities, so when they're sent up there as teachers or other professionals they get a little bit more money for that to work.

The other thing I know about is the nutrition north program, which subsidizes supposedly some food but most of those subsidies end up going to the North West Company, which is being subsidized to deliver the food there. It doesn't always reach the first nations and the people themselves because the subsidy is eaten up by the company itself to cover its expenses to deliver that food, and it is expensive to deliver food there. I don't doubt that, but there are also other ways we can use the nutrition north money including helping build gardens and greenhouses so the people in the communities themselves can grow their own food. We could subsidize that way, but we could also subsidize country foods because that's what people relied on before and it made them healthy.

Unfortunately, in Shamattawa, for example, when the northern store there burned down a few months ago, it crippled the community. The ability for people to sustain themselves off the land was taken away slowly and surely, and we were left relying on western-based grocery stores to sustain us. When that's taken away, it harms the community. I think in the long term if it had extended I think our people would have figured it out and they would have been okay.

At the same time, I know that that's not always possible with every community because as much as we think it's an easy fix to go live off the land, it takes money to go live off the land and resources, and even the skills that were there before are lacking because our young people are not engaged as much as our previous generations in that kind of lifestyle. There are many things that have changed and are hurting our communities in all kinds of ways.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

The questioning goes to MP Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you very much for being here.

I'd like to pick up on an earlier point with respect to resource development and sharing of some of the projects that are taking place in northern Manitoba. Can you give us some sense as to what opportunities are available, and if they are available what kind of consultation and discussions are required in order for there to be a true partnership between the government and your particular community and other communities in northern Manitoba?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

It seems impossible now to say, but I think the provincial government should turn over Manitoba Hydro to our northern first nations to control and to implement policies that are based on the needs of first nations, but that's not going to happen. I think we're still trying to embark on those conversations to share the resources, and even though right now it looks impossible we'll never stop going on that level.

In my own community, there is the discovery of diamonds supposedly, and that still has to be proven. That's still a ways away and a lot of people in our community are very excited about the possibility. A lot of people are also very skeptical, saying that they're going to ruin our community and our land. The area that the diamonds are supposedly in is a beautiful lake, and I can understand why some people are against resource development solely on that, because the fishing there is incredible. At the same time, I think there are ways that we can do really proper and true duty to consult with our first nations so our elders and our people can help manage a way forward to extract resources that would benefit the region first and then benefit everybody else.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you.

You discussed capacity building extensively. With respect to third party management, what are the specific issues where you think the department or even third parties can assist in building local capacity?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

First of all, I think we have to understand what jobs there are in our communities. It is a myth that there are no jobs in our communities, because there are. But they are ones that need post-secondary education; and we're starting off, when we leave our communities to go to post-secondary education, usually two grades behind. I know that for sure because when I went from grade 9 to grade 10, and from Oxford House to Winnipeg, I was two grades behind. I was one of the smartest kids in the whole school, I'll say, when I was in Oxford House, and the dumbest kid when I got to Winnipeg. I don't understand how some people actually make it. It's sheer perseverance that people make it through post-secondary education, to universities and colleges, when they come from our communities, because it's hard at first, never mind the culture shock and all of the things that you need to get used to when you move to the city.

We have to start looking at the education systems in our communities to build the capacities we need to have a high-functioning community. I think we have lots of examples of that. I know some communities recruit based on the needs in their communities, but we need more of that. In one of our communities a health centre is going up in the next few years. Why can't we decide on what jobs we need and start recruiting for those jobs already, and start creating training programs for that?

When I was discussing the issue of missing and murdered women, a reporter asked me if we need more counselling and safe houses and stuff, and I said, “For sure, but we also need jobs to take care of our own selves and to take care of our own families.”

What happens is we become dependent on other places and other people who don't have the best interests of our people. That's just a microcosm of what's actually happening in our communities. When we're dependent on other forms and other governments and policies and places that don't have our best interests, we suffer. Until we change that, we're going to keep suffering.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The final round of questioning goes to MP Romeo Saganash.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I want to start by saying I agree that with this new government the tone has changed, but at times, when you look at them, especially with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, that attitude is not compatible or consistent with reconciliation, in my mind. Rather than challenging the authority or the tribunal, they should tell us whether or not they will end the discrimination against first nations kids. Those are the kinds of issues that we continue to confront.

A ministerial committee was recently formed by this new government, and it's supposed to review legislation and policy for the future. If you had the opportunity to determine the agenda of that committee, what would it be?

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

For sure, I would infuse it with indigenous thinkers, on that committee, and start honouring that perspective because that's what has always been missing in these policies and creations of these committees. I think you're right. We have a lot of good lip service from this government and even INAC in a lot of ways, but we have yet to see the real improvements that our communities need. I think we need to start talking about it, about what the needs actually are, and start creating environments that are conducive to that. Even in our own province, our INAC office is so inaccessible right now that it's hard for our people to go and have that relationship that is supposedly improving.

I can say that it has improved in some ways, but at the same time there is still a lot of work to do; and we need to move that way, because as it is, we're suffering and it's not getting any better. I think the more we talk about it openly and the more we really look at the challenges together, and also bring the onus back to our first nations.... I think we have to do that. We don't have any choice anymore because we're going into a new era of hope and opportunity, but at the same time it's not going to go with us if we're not working together.

A friend of mine and a colleague from Alberta says that 150 years ago we were meant to be extinct. That's what happened, and that's what got us where we are today. But 150 years later we're still here, and we're now in all facets of society. We're everywhere. We're not in as much as we want to be, in an entry level that builds capacity for our young people, but we're still everywhere. You're still here and a lot of first nations are, in every level. And in 150 years, who knows where we'll be if we keep moving the way we are? That's my great hope.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

To meet some of the challenges—and there are a lot—even in the previous study that we did on suicide prevention in the communities, housing was an issue that kept coming back. What hope do you have with this next budget coming up tomorrow?

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Say one word very quickly.

[Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson]

I'm cautiously optimistic but not very hopeful. It will never meet the challenges that are there at this very second and that are endangering people's lives in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you very much for participating. You've had a recent accident and broken your arm. It made it even more difficult to come out. Our appreciation for going that extra mile, many miles from where your homelands are.

We're going to take a break and when we come back, we'll be in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]