Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 11th, 2017

[Loretta Burnstick]

With regard to the AFN, most grassroots people look to the AFN as an organization that is there to assist us. I guess we expect our leaders and our chiefs to encourage and work toward laws that promote transparency and accountability. That's why they're elected. We encourage them to do everything possible to promote good governance for the people.

I think back on my late grandfather who was involved in politics back in the day and he, at one time, was a chief. Many of us remember the things he promoted. Our ancestors always said, “Look after your people”, simple words. In modern times, for the most part, we would think of at least making sure people have a roof over their heads, clothing, and shelter, the very basics at the least, and in that way they can start to look at other areas of development in their lives.

I certainly know that's what helped me. If I hadn't had a roof over my head after being homeless and going through all the things I went through as a survivor of the residential school system and the day school system, I wouldn't be where I am today. We expect our organizations to put those in place for us.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Currently, there's no compliance on transparency, and it's been 16 or 18 months, and the government is saying it is working with the AFN to develop something that's acceptable. To me, basic expenses and audited statements are just a minimum standard, so hopefully, ultimately they are going to come out with something that is significantly more comprehensive.

My concern, again, is that it seems to be fairly top-down. There was apparently some kind of online survey. To what degree do you think the online survey penetrated the awareness in any of the communities that it was their opportunity for input into what the new fiscal relationship and transparency might look like?

[Loretta Burnstick]

In my community we felt left out. We felt we didn't have a voice. There was not a lot of consultation in my community. Most certainly there are a number of us who would have made recommendations. Many of us feel our voices are not heard. I don't mean to say that disrespectfully, but it's almost like we're forgotten, and we're the ones who live in these conditions day to day.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you for those comments.

Our questioning now moves to MP Romeo Saganash.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Allow me first to apologize for being late. I have no control over traffic. That's what you have to deal with when you choose to live across the river. I apologize to Loretta because I missed her presentation and part of Mr. Bear's presentation as well.

I do want to come back to something that's been identified by many witnesses before us who came before you, which is the chronic underfunding. Capacity building is also important. Many people have mentioned that in much of the testimony before us.

One of the things that intrigues me.... This study was not of our choosing. It was the choice of the majority of this committee. It wasn't necessarily my priority. There are a lot of other priorities for first nations people in this country other than this one.

Even if we achieved successful capacity building in any community, the fact of the matter is that these communities will remain under an archaic governance system, which is the Indian Act. Do you see that as a problem?

This is for each and every one of you.

[Stanley Bear]

I will take a crack at that.

I would bring in an entrepreneur, but at the same time I'm going to bring him in as a first nations person. Canada's going to be 150 years old. Although we talk about the government of today, we need to talk about the whole 150 years, with regard to the colonialism and the situation indigenous people are in with the colonization and the destruction of some of the languages and the values, the whole thing. Prior to the Europeans coming and prior to the creation of Canada there was a healthier community. The challenge is getting back those values and implementing them today because they're just as relevant.

We were not in a chaotic state prior to the Europeans coming to Canada. I always ask, what did we do to survive 550 years ago before the Europeans came? We survived for thousands of years, and it wasn't feeding off other people. It was a more structured environment.

We need to look at what it is. I think the default prevention and management policy is an effect of a cause. If you want to correct it, there shouldn't even be a policy if the cause were solved. What causes that? That should be the focus, not trying to fix it.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In other words, what you're telling us is that this committee has a mandate to “improve”, I think that's the word used in the mandate of this committee regarding this study. However we improve this policy, we still remain under a governance structure that is inappropriate and colonial.

Are you saying that this process, studying this policy, is useless as long as we remain under the Indian Act?

[Stanley Bear]

If it's useless, we're currently living in today's time, so today we need to.... It may be with us for a while. How do we make it more effective? Do you know what I mean? Even if we have it, one could say we're not going to have a default policy, the whole thing, but what is its replacement? What is the root cause? If you're going to delete it, what's going to happen?

[Wendy Harris]

Yes. I think it's a very good point. I'd like to add that the Indian Act is a clear problem. You could pick any issue to talk about today, and the Indian Act is going to be a problem. While that is being looked at, dismantled, whatever, I would like to see communities being set up for success. It's not going to be overnight: one day we have the Indian Act and the next day we don't. We have time right now to set up communities for success in strengthened governance, financial management, economic diversity, leadership, all those things.

I would like to add to what you said about underfunding. Underfunding is definitely an issue. Financial management is an issue. There are financial management issues on the government side as well as the community side.

[Lorne Cochrane]

Some of the challenges, obviously, are greater. There have to be some incentives for progressive communities. You need an intervention policy to some degree, but it has to be worded in a way that is more co-operative rather than punitive.

With 45 seconds, I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The structure of this committee is very difficult for a wholesome debate.

We now have the final round of questions. That will go to—

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Actually, Chair, I'm going to pass my time over to Robert-Falcon Ouellette.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Okay. MP Robert-Falcon Ouellette, welcome to our committee.

I turn it over to you.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you very much. It's very brave of you to testify so passionately on this issue.

I have a few very important questions and comments. One of the issues you keep raising is corruption. Mr. Bear, Mr. Cochrane and Ms. Burnstick, in your documents, you mention a corruption process like the one described by Graaf and Huberts in a 2008 report. You list nine propositions about the process of “becoming corrupt”.

I am deeply concerned about this, because it makes me think of the time when I was in the military, in the 1990s. There were a lot of problems in the Canadian army. People may not recall, but that institution of ours was lacking in capacity. We were no longer representative of our population; we were no longer representing Canadians and their values.

At the time, we decided to build our capacity through education. We rethought the institution in order to give us a long-term vision. We have produced a document entitled Defence Strategy 2020, which has helped me advance in my career, not only in leadership but also in management. Those two skills are extremely important. You can be a leader without being a manager, and a manager without being a leader. Sometimes, we have to be able to combine those two roles; we have to be realistic and know how to differentiate between the two, and determine when to apply the related processes.

I really liked what Mr. Bear said about feeding off others.

In your view, what would happen if we completely abandoned this policy?

The federal government cannot tell the provinces, such as New Brunswick, Quebec or Ontario, that they are not able to manage their own affairs and that it will now take control. Instead, it is saying that it is a nation-to-nation relationship and the provinces must manage their affairs on their own.

What kind of education should we provide? Should we have academic institutions like Ryerson University or the Banff Centre? Or should there be an indigenous educational institution to provide community chiefs, leaders and workers with lifelong training to improve their skills? Even if they change jobs, they would be able to perform any duties because of their education.

What type of system could we set up to build that capacity?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Please direct your question.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My question is for everyone. I would like to quickly hear each witness, although we don't have much time left.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

There are three minutes, so one minute each.

Stan.

[Stanley Bear]

I will quickly say that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a horse drink. You could have an institution for your education, a university. You could take the child to school or take the individual to university, but you cannot make the individual learn. He may pass a test, but he may not implement those things. What I'm saying is that it has to be the will of the people to make the leaders accountable.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Bear, you also suggested a code of conduct though, so who imposes that code of conduct? Is that a code of conduct from the community? Is it a code of conduct from the federal government saying to the community, “These are the standards, this is what you have to meet”? Who should do that?

[Stanley Bear]

I think the ideal situation would be that it come from the community level and that it's enforceable, at maybe a national level by indigenous institutions, should that first nation not implement the code. As they say, you can have policies and you can have acts and legislation, but if there's no one there to implement that legislation or deter criminal actions, they are of no use.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Go ahead, Ms. Harris.

[Wendy Harris]

I would like to say a couple of things. First, culturally appropriate, capacity-building training that is community-driven with community engagement is always the best way to go. Again, if the results are to be sustainable and successful, it has to happen.

I think that, when one builds strength in terms of governance and that code of ethics and the values and all that, it plays into good governance. You build momentum in the community that helps then build even better governance. Trying to say it another way, the most effective sort of behaviour modification is feedback from your peers, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You have 20 seconds.

[Wendy Harris]

I'll leave it there then. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We have a response from Loretta.