Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 8th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The five-minute round begins with MP Yurdiga.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming before us today. It seems like we try to over-complicate everything. We say this is too complex. Gender equality is gender equality. What's good for A is good for B. You just can't legislate who you are. It's your genetics. I understand that the government's not going to be supporting the Senate amendments.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Just one.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Anyway, can these issues be addressed in phase two, and can you describe who's running phase two? Is it INAC? Is it the commission? Or how is it going to be made up because that's very important?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

This is something we really have been discussing. Some people have suggested there could be a ministerial special representative to run it. Other people think that would be a bad idea. We are going to have to decide how we do this. It was interesting to hear the suggestion of the two Houses making sure that they knew because we have committed that we will report on the design back to Parliament within five months. We're committed to launch stage two within six months; a progress report to Parliament, both Houses, in 12 months; but also a three-year review clause to determine whether we have really gotten rid of all the sex-based inequities in terms of eliminating them.

It is my personal commitment that this engagement will be robust and inclusive of all the voices that need to be heard on this, of all the people who have been or could be impacted by this in terms of their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. Again, this is going to be the hard piece of work over the next five months, because the process is one thing, the design of the process another. It's going to be imperative that people trust it and know that it's meaningful, in the same way as we spent time as ministers designing the process for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls to make sure that it was trauma-informed and that the families would be at the centre of it. The work in designing the process is sometimes as important as the process itself.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you. I think this is more of a money issue than anything else because we heard from the other side...resources available, and what it's going to cost, and I think that's really the mandate of the government to push this down the road four, five, six years, or however long it takes. Did the government calculate the cost of eliminating all the sex-based discrimination? Are there numbers out there that startled the government to say, “Oh, we can't do this because it's going to cost us x amount of dollars”? Were those calculations ever done, because I think that's the first place to look?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Well, I'm afraid you walked into a question that is the reason why the Conservative government did the judicial review in the first place, because there were very clear numbers that there would be between 25,000 and 35,000 new status Indians. We have embraced that. We will do that, and more. That's kind of what Romeo Saganash was saying, that it shouldn't be between rights and money. We don't see that, but we do think there has to be a process with integrity to determine who has those rights.

The cases of Descheneaux and Gehl are clear as to who has rights. Phase two is to determine a process where we can get the right numbers and get the people who have those rights the status they deserve.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

You have 30 seconds.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

That's not a lot of time.

When is phase two going to be rolling out? Obviously, we want to get Bill S-3 through the House shortly. When does phase two start?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Within the legislation, it needs to be rolled out at six months, and we have to report to Parliament at five months on the design that has been agreed upon so that we can launch at that six-month point from royal assent.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

Moving on, the questioning goes to MP Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Minister and colleagues, welcome once again.

We heard a great deal of skepticism, Madam Minister, about the approach that Canadian governments have taken in the past with respect to expanding the definition and the fight for equality within the membership of the Indian Act. The previous panel talked about Lovelace, McIvor, and Descheneaux, and all the phase twos that ought to have happened but never really happened and never followed through with future legislation. I think there is a great deal of validity to those concerns, and history has proven that this is accurate.

What is different now? What is it that makes this different—other than the fact that you are the lead in the department—and that will make sure there will be a meaningful phase two, with meaningful outcomes and proper legislation to follow?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

The first thing is that we pulled the appeal on the judicial review that the previous government had done, and we accepted the ruling of Descheneaux. I think, Gary, that what is important to understand is that Descheneaux came only because of the gaps in the legislation for McIvor. A number of things were missed, and therefore Descheneaux went to court to say, “You missed these things in the bill responding to McIvor.”

What we are trying to do now is say, “We've done this bit, but we're not done yet.” We are going to design a process to make sure that all of it is done, and you, Parliament, will hold us to it that we get this thing done properly, with no unintended consequences and no gaps that are missed, and that we get this whole business of discrimination in the Indian Act dealt with.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

David Schulze testified on Tuesday, and he indicated there was a case conference, a discussion with the possibility of extending time. Given the time pressures we are facing, and given the Senate amendments, would it be appropriate for us to seek an extension? If so, are you able to update us on any developments on that front?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

I think we lived what truncated engagement looks like in these pieces. I believe strongly that we need this bill passed, and we need to get those 35,000-plus people their rights. The kids of some of these people need to go to university this fall, and they need to be status by this fall when they apply to university. Drawing this out any longer for the people who clearly have court-awarded rights, and all those we have added in this process, I think would be a disservice. We need to get on and do all of the rest of it in a timely fashion, such that we can get everybody who deserves status their rights.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

If we were to pass this, do you have a process to fast-track priority registration for those who may require it, for example, those who will be applying to universities in the fall? Maybe the registrar can answer. Will that process be in place to ensure priority for those who may be in need of that additional recognition?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Absolutely. Nathalie is the registrar, and they are in the process of hiring extra resources to deal with this group of people who will receive status because of Bill S-3.

Nathalie, did you want to add something?

[Nathalie Nepton, Executive Director, Indian Registration and Integrated Program Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

The minister is correct, we are in the process of staffing up; $19 million has been earmarked to support the application process for additional individuals in the register.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The final session of questioning goes to Cathy McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, we're living with the reality of a majority government, and I'm hearing that you accept this bill with the exclusion of paragraph 6(1)(a). Is that accurate? You're definitive on that?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Yes, we have accepted all the advice and all the other amendments from the Senate, but the one we find difficult in practical implementation, we are unable to accept.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I want to note you referenced Senator Murray Sinclair, but I believe when it came to the Senate it was unanimous there, was it not, including—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

No. Senator Sinclair voted against the amendment.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you for that clarification.

My next question I want to ask again, and it's my third time asking, are you confident that Bill S-3, that you are proposing the committee accept, will eliminate all known sex-based inequities in the act?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Yes. We said “known sex-based inequities”, and we are taking guidance from the B.C. Court of Appeal that determined that the McIvor recommendation was not necessary for the department to operate in a charter-compliant way, but we want to deal with that in terms of second generation cut-off and pre-1951, and all those issues in phase two.