Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 29th, 2017

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

I don't think the policies incorporate bringing the Government of the United States to the table to also negotiate claims. Unfortunately, we're not there yet as a country. I know you're probably well aware of the attitude of our southern states, our partners. I think it's a bit off.

We as a community work collaboratively with the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs to ensure that the rights that we have for lands, whether in Canada or the United States, are protected. As well, if there are claims, we sit down collectively, similar to what the chief has described with some of the other communities there, and determine what the best courses of action are.

As far as the jurisdictional on provincial...all of our claims right now are with the federal government. There is the responsibility of the federal government to inform the provinces in which they're going on, but we as a community also undertake to ensure that they're well aware. At the end of the day, we believe that the provinces need to be supportive, to a certain degree, as to where we're going with claims, because they can also slow it down. We have seen that in other instances across the country.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

The other thing of course is that the relationships with the provinces vary from province to province and territory. For example, with mining extraction in British Columbia, specific royalty sharing agreements come to the communities. I think it was 37% of the royalty.

Is anything like that happening in Ontario when there is use of resources for forestry or mining? That specific revenue stream from the province is not related to any benefit agreements that you might have negotiated with the companies?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

For our community specifically, no, none of that discussion is going on with respect to forestry and mining. Being part of some of the regional work, yes, I'm aware that those discussions are happening. The resource we have in our community is predominantly the river, a lot which is a federal responsibility.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

The other comment that was made that I would like to explore is the submission that it goes into a black hole for a couple of years so there is no dialogue. Can you tell us a little more? Is that accurate? Is there no testing of assumptions within that process?

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

I can't speak for everybody, but for us we submit it and wait and wait; we do a follow-up letter, we get a “Yes, we've received your letter”, and we wait some more. That's the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

That concludes your time.

We're moving on to MP Saganash.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

[Member speaks in Cree]

Madam Chair, I want to take this opportunity to respond to the accusations coming from the other side since I didn't get a chance to respond. I take reconciliation very seriously. After 35 years of honest effort at reconciliation, I took offence at the member for Pontiac's accusations of partisanship.

I listened to our witnesses this morning, and one of them said that although the commitments are very nice, it's not happening on the ground. Another witness concurred with that observation. I quoted the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. I don't think we can say that the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal is a partisan body. What I'm trying to achieve here, Madam Chair, is what is just for this country. I've been doing that for the last 35 years. Being accused of partisanship was unwarranted on the part of the member for Pontiac. He may disagree with me, and I don't mind, but I certainly won't take any form of paternalism from anyone. We've had enough of that for 150 years. I don't think it's warranted anymore.

Thank you, Madam Chair. My apologies for that. I had to respond, I think I had the right to respond.

One of the things we've heard over and over again since we started in Vancouver on Monday is that the process failed a lot of first nations that had either comprehensive or specific claims. There needs to be a major change to that policy, or even to the approach to specific and comprehensive claims.

You talked about that. At the core of this problem is the need for a level playing field and equal access to resolution. We've heard that throughout. It's unjust that only monetary compensation is contemplated for specific claims and not for land. That seems to be your ultimate goal. I think a lot of groups across this country agree with that.

Injury to culture was also mentioned, and that is also contemplated by others. We're here to propose perhaps new policies or maybe a major change to a fair, transparent process that may be required in the future to deal with these challenging claims.

I'd like to hear more about what you would recommend to this committee for us to do our job and deliver to the present government. It's a very general question to all three of you.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

One of the things we have contemplated, especially considering our unique geographical location in this country, is that perhaps we should look at treaty claims and the creation of a third, different claim category, instead of the existing ones, which would give due consideration to super-unique locations.

To one of the other points you made, I will tell you that currently we do have a settlement on offer, and we support all of the other positions made by members, the extinguishment of the right, which ends up in the language of the agreement itself. We are heading into the process where we have to go to the members for ratification. Being the second-largest community in Canada, behind Chief Hill's, we have a lot of members in our community. When Canada comes forward and tells us that we need to ratify in accordance with the referendum requirements, this means we have to have a double majority to accept it, because it's a surrender-type thing. In Akwesasne, there are 8,000 registered people who are 18 years and over, so a double majority is 4,000 people.

First, for us to achieve that number is almost impossible. We have been working on a specific one and saying that we have to find a way around this. The other thing is that, when we talk about the return of lands and the compensation aspect, I can tell you that, for us, to take it to the community and say that we are not getting any land back and we are getting this kind of money makes it an uphill battle also.

As we move forward, if we look at revamping some of the existing categories or creating a new one, this all needs to be taken into consideration. In a community of 1,000 people, it's easy to reach 200 people, no problem. But I can tell you that I don't know where all those 4,000 Mohawks are. I know a lot of people—I have a large community—but they are moving all over the place in Canada. That's something that needs to be given serious consideration.

I know that's a bit off topic there, but I think that, as we move forward, these are things that need to be considered.

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

I want to comment on that, if I could.

My first nation has a claim of title to water, yet we are one of the few first nations that are actually landlocked. We don't have any water, and our people desperately want to get back on the water. Going forward, we need to have some kind of opportunity to be on the waters again for ceremony and processes.

The other thing is—and I think it's been talked about before—that having specific claims that deal strictly with money does not work. Truthfully—and hopefully none of my members are watching this—I am not interested just in money anymore. That's not the way of the future for us. I am interested in negotiating and working to find ways to make a living off my land in the modern day. I don't hunt anymore. I can't hunt in Toronto or Guelph, so I need to find other ways. The treaties are all about sustaining ourselves on the land, and we have to take that into today.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

The questioning now goes to MP Bossio.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Actually, I am going to pass the first part of my question over to Will Amos and then pick up afterwards.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I'll be very brief.

I just want to congratulate Grand Chief Benedict and his community on the development of the first entirely indigenous legal system, which was fully done outside the sphere of federal and provincial governments. I think it demonstrates really interesting leadership that reflects well on the country as a whole, but also particularly your nation, so meegwetch to Joyce King. Please bring that message back.

I know that Ontario, Quebec, and the feds are looking at a framework to figure out how to deal with that, but I think it puts your community in an interesting position vis-à-vis commenting on what we should do with the specific claims process. You are quite competent to develop legal regimes on your own, so thank you for delivering those views.

That was my only comment.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I want to spin off from that to Phillipp White-Cree on the research front, not just the legal framework you've been able to develop. I assume part of that was developed as a result of the research that you've been able to conduct as a group. In my travels across the country, I have not come across any other reserve that has its own full-time research team that is constantly looking into this and probably other issues. Am I correct on that?

[Phillip White-Cree]

There are a few. They're very small. We have an annual gathering all the time.

Unfortunately, a lot of it is due to the funding aspects. As I said, my office about three generations prior wanted to have this happen, but it wasn't until 1989 that the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne was able to permanently house us as an office. Ever since then, we've continually built up our research mechanisms.

Being so close to Ottawa really helps, but again, for other first nations, that is not an opportunity they necessarily have.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

You've probably come up with some ideas around how you think that funding mechanism needs to change.

[Phillip White-Cree]

Yes. There are a few aspects with the funding. Sometimes when the funds are requested, they're not actually released until the third or fourth fiscal quarter. That means the first nation does have to bear the brunt of those expenses, and then it's not always the full amount that was requested. We're always running in a kind of deficit situation.

That's an aspect of the funding abilities. That's where, with other first nations, it would be a boon if they were able to hit the ground running with the finances and the resources to be able to have a staff to push forward these research initiatives.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

In the funding for the research initiatives under the present framework, is it only for the initial research for the claim itself, or does the research capability continue all the way through the whole process to resolution?

[Phillip White-Cree]

It's piecemeal.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It is piecemeal: so each time you enter a different stage of negotiation, you start with the initial research to put forward the claim, then you go through research funding for negotiation, research funding post-settlement, etc.

[Phillip White-Cree]

Correct.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

With regard to the research you're doing, is it only for Akwesasne or is it for all the Mohawk communities?

[Phillip White-Cree]

Primarily we focus within the sphere of Akwesasne specifically, but we do have talks with our neighbouring communities and we do share resources if we have an overlap.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

As part of that research, are you looking into the educational components that could be provided in your interactions with neighbouring communities to try to educate them on the process, the importance of it, the historical injustice, etc.?

[Phillip White-Cree]

Yes. Within the Mohawk government there's a government liaison officer, and one of her roles is to communicate with Quebec specifically. That is an aspect that is not funded but is something that the Mohawk government does push forward as a necessity.