Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2017

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Premier, I know the issue of housing has come up a number of times, and MP McLeod has brought it up on numerous occasions. Can you maybe give us a closer sense of how the federal housing money translates into actual housing for the communities, or some of the challenges you face in implementing federal government policy with respect to housing?

[Robert R. McLeod]

I think there are two aspects to that. One is the amount of money that our government has for housing. Our minister of housing answered a question about the federal government having provided $8 million of that for aboriginal housing, and our government having provided $92 million.

If that money is taken away and given to aboriginal governments, it's not going to resolve.... It's a problem. We have a problem now, and if you take that money and transfer it to aboriginal governments we're still going to have a problem unless the federal government invests more money in housing.

We saw the division of Indigenous and Northern Affairs into two departments. When Minister Philpott was asked that same question, she pointed to the Inuvialuit—i.e., we took $50 million and we gave it to the Inuvialuit for housing. Well, the main interest of the Inuvialuit was to build the houses. They didn't have money for operation and maintenance, and they didn't want to manage the buildings, so they turned around and sold them back to us. We are left with finding O and M and resources to manage the buildings.

I think that worked out very well. I think that for both the Inuvialuit and our government, it's a win-win. I don't know if that will happen in every instance, but certainly I'm supportive of incremental money for housing. If it means more housing for aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories, I'm all for it.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Premier.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

The questioning moves to MP Cathy McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hopefully, with my last name, I get honorary community membership. I feel surrounded by family here.

[Robert R. McLeod]

You can join the McLeod party.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I brought this question up with past panels, and it is related in many ways, although perhaps one step removed. Moratoriums on offshore, designation of park space, and implementation of carbon tax are pretty significant policy decisions that appear to be have been quite unilateral. As I asked those questions to some of the indigenous leadership, they weren't part of discussion or knowledge about those particular policy decisions. They heard after the fact or right before the fact.

Did your government have a heads-up and good consultation before those policy implementations? It certainly has a significant impact for the N.W.T.

[Robert R. McLeod]

I mean, I've been very public about it. The chair of the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation and I both found out about it two hours before the moratorium was announced. That was the extent of it.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

There was a significant potential impact in terms of the prosperity of the north, and no ability to have a conversation or input.

[Robert R. McLeod]

I guess I should point out that it is a permanent moratorium in the Beaufort and it's reviewed every five years. At the time that the moratorium was announced, there was $2.6 billion of work commitments in the Beaufort Sea. Since then we have received letters from those leaseholders that they're being approached by the Government of Canada as to what it would take for them to give up their leases. So not only is there a moratorium, there's an effort to have the existing operators move out of the Beaufort.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I understand that the transfers to the territorial governments were reduced by about $91 million, but then they were lifted a bit. Was that because there was a refocusing of the money to support perhaps other areas? What was behind that transfer reduction that you saw to the tune of $91 million, and then, as I say, I believe they lifted it again? Was it about supporting new governance structures, or...?

[Robert R. McLeod]

I'm not sure about the $91 million. There was $26 million for transition. After transition was over, that would have fallen off.

The other part that was reduced substantially was the resource revenues, because since devolution we are now in a situation where we don't have one molecule of oil or gas being produced in the Northwest Territories. We've gone to zilch in that time.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay.

One thing I'm curious about, because it's a relatively small population, is whether health care has been part of some of the agreements. How is the health care piece working, or do you continue to be responsible for the provision of all health care services?

[Robert R. McLeod]

Before the devolution of health care services, the Government of the Northwest Territories had two hospitals, the Stanton hospital and the Hay River hospital, which was run by a religious organization. All the health services were provided by Health and Welfare Canada until I think the mid-1980s, when devolution occurred.

The Government of the Northwest Territories is responsible for providing health services to all residents of the Northwest Territories. We send a bill once a year to Health Canada for providing health services to aboriginal people. Essentially that's how it works, in addition to the uninsured health services that we deliver on behalf of the Government of Canada.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That is different, perhaps, than an area such as British Columbia, where part of the comprehensive agreements have included chapters on health care, and in the case of British Columbia, the First Nations Health Authority has assumed some, but not all, of the responsibilities. In your case, you maintain full responsibility and bill the federal government. Are there any issues in terms of the non-insured health benefit component?

[Robert R. McLeod]

We have to get approval from the federal government for dental services or eyeglasses. If those exceed the limit parameters by, I believe, 2%, then we would have to eat what we weren't reimbursed. It works out to about $1 million a year.

We also provide Métis health benefits, which are not reimbursed by the federal government. We're waiting to issue a $25-million bill to somebody once the Daniels case is finalized.

If federal money for health care is transferred to indigenous bands, I guess then we have to figure out how we're going to operate. If we don't have money to operate a hospital, for example, how would we operate? Would it be like the United States, where if we're going to provide services, you have to show how you're going to pay for them before you come to the hospital?

Those are all unanswered questions.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It wouldn't appear to make economies-of-scale sense, especially in such areas as health care, for there to be multiple deliverers of the service, then, through different agreements.

[Robert R. McLeod]

We're only 45,000 people. We're spread out over 33 communities. That's the way the system was fragmented. Now we have an integrated health delivery system. If we go back to a fragmented system, then we don't have economies of scale. With only 45,000 people, we don't have a lot of economies of scale to begin with. That's a concern.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Questioning now moves to MP Harvey.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I want to touch on something that I noticed in your presentation. Mr. McLeod and I sat on the natural resources committee together earlier on. In your presentation, you touched on government's inability to provide certainty. I'm wondering if you could comment on how that should look—government trying to strike a balance between ensuring certainty, but ensuring certainty through recognizing that we need to look after the environment. We heard from a witness this morning who said they would much appreciate a meeting with the ministry of environment, and making sure that we do our best to recognize the individuality of indigenous nations and also the territorial government.

How do you see that? How do you create a balance that achieves all those things?

[Robert R. McLeod]

The policy of our government is to have balanced development whereby we have development but we make sure the environment is protected as well. We do so by consulting. We consult, and then we consult, and then we consult. We're always consulting. We have one of the most rigorous regulatory systems in Canada, I would say, whereunder to move anything we have to seek some environmental approval. I think we're very well protected in that area.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

You were speaking about health care earlier. You mentioned that you have 33 communities and 45,000 people. Is that right?

[Robert R. McLeod]

That's right.