Evidence of meeting #77 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreements.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sam Gargan  Sub-Chief and Mayor of Fort Providence, Deh Gah Got'ie First Nations
Bill Enge  President, North Slave Métis Alliance
Christopher Devlin  Legal Counsel, North Slave Métis Alliance
Wilbert Kochon  Chief, Behdzi Ahda First Nation
Joseph Kochon  Chief Negotiator, Behdzi Ahda First Nation
Jake Heron  Chief Negotiator, Northwest Territory Métis Nation
Duane Ningaqsiq Smith  Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Inuvialuit Regional Corporation
Bill Erasmus  National Chief, Dene Nation
Chief George Mackenzie  Grand Chief, Tlicho Government
Bertha Rabesca Zoe  Legal Counsel, Tlicho Government
Chief Bobbie Jo Greenland-Morgan  Grand Chief and President, Gwich'in Tribal Council
Ethel Blondin-Andrew  Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated
Robert R. McLeod  Premier, Government of the Northwest Territories

11:25 a.m.

Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

Ethel Blondin-Andrew

In our case, the 25 years of negotiations started with all parties included. There was a breakdown of that major comprehensive claim and it went to a regional claim mode, but many of the guiding principles, provisions, and AIP decisions were there already, so they took that and worked regionally with it. That's what happened with us. I think it's good.

Our challenge is always resources. We're really challenged by a lack of infrastructure and by remoteness. I don't know if they get calculated into this, but that's what our challenges are.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Grand Chief.

11:25 a.m.

Grand Chief and President, Gwich'in Tribal Council

Grand Chief Bobbie Jo Greenland-Morgan

I think it can be good. Part of the vision that our leaders had regarding what this claim was going to bring for us has been achieved, but a lot of it is not there. It's like a marriage: you get into something, but it isn't going to prosper if you don't work on it together. I think that's where the problem comes from. The vision was there, but are we implementing it properly? No. There are all these things we are not doing. Even if you look at the 2003 Auditor General's report, Sheila Fraser specifically commented on the Gwich'in and the complexity of things. If you haven't read that report yet, I suggest you do, because in there it is documented that the government does need to honour the intent of the treaty.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

You said earlier that you straddle the Northwest Territories and Yukon border. Do you see differences on the two sides of that border in being able to attract investment from around the world? Is it different from one side to the other? Have you been able to attract investment in, say, mining operation, oil and gas, or fishing?

11:25 a.m.

Grand Chief and President, Gwich'in Tribal Council

Grand Chief Bobbie Jo Greenland-Morgan

As I mentioned earlier, it's one of our biggest files right now, which we're trying to make progress on. Until we make that progress, I don't think I can even answer that question.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Well, just on—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Sorry, your time has expired.

MP Harvey, go ahead for two or three minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I have a couple of questions for Ms. Andrew.

First of all, thank you to all of you for being here today. Certainly we've had really engaging panels this morning. We've had the opportunity to hear a bunch of broad viewpoints.

With regard to the overlapping and the issues around that, how are the different nations coping with that, with the overlap and the...I don't want to say “dispute”, but the uneasiness that would come with not having that resolved between neighbouring nations? What are the best steps forward for that?

Maybe I'll ask that to both of you.

11:30 a.m.

Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

Ethel Blondin-Andrew

Complicated, challenging, and unresolved: that's all I can say. I think we've tried almost everything. It's very, very difficult—for us; we're the ones with the problem.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

For you guys, is that about utilization of the land for recreational purposes and hunting and fishing, or is it about subsurface rights?

11:30 a.m.

Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

Ethel Blondin-Andrew

No, it's about economic measures mostly, economic opportunities.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay. I wasn't asking that as a loaded question, either, just for the record. I was just curious.

Bertha.

11:30 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Tlicho Government

Bertha Rabesca Zoe

Currently we're working with Canada regarding some discrepancies within our boundaries. So we're trying to work those out before we finalize anything. There's no huge thing, but we're working with NRCan on finalizing the boundary. It is finalized, but there are just a few discrepancies we need to work on.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay.

Does anyone else want to comment on the overlapping issues that can or will inevitably result from having indigenous nations share those fluid property lines?

Yes, Chair.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

In one minute: please, tell us what we can do across the nation. I have a few of those issues in Manitoba.

11:30 a.m.

National Chief, Dene Nation

Chief Bill Erasmus

Yes, well, look at what the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples talked about in 1996. They talked about recognizing that the indigenous peoples in Canada have underlying title, meaning that we used all of the land, and you let them settle their differences. For example, there were issues here in this area. When the elders sat down, they settled it. The problem was that one first nation was at the table first. Canada wanted to provide them everything that was on the table, until other people spoke up.

If you let people sort out their differences amongst themselves, using their own mechanisms, then you don't have a big problem, because those differences have already been settled. That's why people are where they are.

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

That basically concludes our time. We do have another panel, and we are expecting to host the premier.

I want to thank you for travelling, for sharing your time with us, and for your words of wisdom. As we say, sometimes it seems frustrating. The committee has heard it. You know, we've talked to committees before; we've expressed ourselves; we're frustrated. I think we understand that. But it's a tool for us to raise the issues again, to put them into the public face, to present them to Parliament, and to refresh the calls. That's exactly what we'll do. I believe we'll have the report done before Christmas, or submitted.

I thank you very much for your input.

11:30 a.m.

Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

Ethel Blondin-Andrew

Can I ask that I leave my written presentation, so that it will get the full—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Absolutely.

Anybody who has written documents, please leave them with the clerk. We'll ensure that they're part of our record.

11:35 a.m.

Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

11:35 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Tlicho Government

Bertha Rabesca Zoe

The Tlicho did an impact study of the Tlicho agreement on the northern economy. It showed that we contributed about half a million dollars to the northern economy because of the Tlicho agreement, through our businesses and all of that. Could we give it to the committee?

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Please do.

Thank you very much.

We'll take a short break, and then we're going to reconvene.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Let's start the session on time. We have the respect from the premier, who is here and made time for us, and I want to be sure that we have an opportunity to use every minute we have with Premier Robert McLeod.

You are our final guest on a cross-Canada tour that we've done from Vancouver to Winnipeg to Ontario and Quebec. Now we're here on the urging of MP McLeod, saying we must come up. It was our pleasure to be invited.

We're studying land claims, both specific and comprehensive. We want to hear about self-government agreements. We will be preparing a report that will be submitted to Parliament. The Department of Indigenous Affairs will be required to respond to us. This will be another opportunity to help guide the government in a process of truth and reconciliation and good governance.

Welcome on behalf of all of the committee members. We're honoured to be here and to have you join us. You have 10 minutes to present, and then we'll have questions from the MPs, which will give us time to delve into issues.

Go ahead, any time you're ready.

11:45 a.m.

Robert R. McLeod Premier, Government of the Northwest Territories

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to present to you today in relation to your study on modern treaties and self-government throughout Canada.

The Government of the Northwest Territories has made it a priority to advance, finalize, and implement land, resource, and self-government agreements, including post-devolution initiatives. We appreciate this opportunity to participate in your committee's study, and hope that it will contribute to continued progress on this important initiative for the people of the Northwest Territories.

The Government of Canada has made strong statements about the importance of a renewed relationship with indigenous people and the contribution of colonial structures to the unacceptable socio-economic condition in which too many indigenous people in Canada find themselves. We strongly agree on the importance of Canada renewing relationships with indigenous peoples. We also believe we have much to offer in terms of how to renew that relationship and support self-determination. We believe constitutionally protected agreements are the highest form of recognition of aboriginal rights. We also believe final indigenous rights agreements are the appropriate tool to codify those rights in the legal and constitutional framework of Canada.

The Government of the Northwest Territories believes that the certainty provided by final rights and self-government agreements is central to the health of our communities, our economy, and our environment. Our government has been committed to negotiating and implementing land, resource, and self-government agreements in the Northwest Territories for over 40 years. Today there are five settled land claims in our territory and two settled self-government agreements. Our government works in partnership with these claimant groups on a government-to-government basis, unlike those typically seen in southern Canada.

Our government-to-government approach is formally enshrined in our intergovernmental relations policy and reiterated in Respect, Recognition, Responsibility, our approach to engaging with indigenous governments, published in 2012. Canada's principles and our respect, recognition, and responsibility have many similarities, including a formalized recognition of the inherent right to self-government. Our approach respects and incorporates the commitments made in settled claim agreements, and is further supported by bilateral MOUs that we have entered into with several indigenous governments. It is important to point out that our policy doesn't recognize just those indigenous governments with a settled claim. We also formally recognize as governments those indigenous governments who are also currently in negotiations or have a right to negotiate.

In addition to the settled claims, the Government of the Northwest Territories is currently implementing negotiations to continue on with three other regional claims. Our government remains committed to seeing these three claims finalized and implemented. Settling these claims is a priority. We continue to look for new ways to bring negotiations to a successful conclusion. That commitment included the appointment of two ministerial special representatives, by me and by Minister Carolyn Bennett, to look closely at claim processes in the Dehcho, Akaitcho, and South Slave regions. As a result of that work, we were able to table innovative new offers with the N.W.T. Métis Nation and Akaitcho. The offers were designed to be as flexible as possible and allow indigenous governments to choose how best to pursue their own priorities through the claims process.

Another innovation of the GNWT to support the settlement of claims is looking at the option of negotiating a generalized interest in resource development. Generalized interest would allow indigenous governments to receive a share of revenue from the development of resources on all lands in their region, not just on settlement lands. Aboriginal rights and self-government agreements remove barriers to economic development, reduce legal ambiguities, and increase indigenous self-sufficiency. These agreements clearly lay out the responsibilities for public and indigenous governments, and define the modern relationships between them. Our interest and priority as a public government is in ensuring that our residents have fair and equitable services, no matter where they live or what indigenous government they may be a part of.

One of the distinctive aspects of the Northwest Territories is the central role of indigenous people in our society. It is important to understand that the GNWT has evolved alongside the negotiation of aboriginal rights agreements. The vision that established the GNWT saw a future where the public government and indigenous governments worked together to meet their respective priorities. Our government has always existed in the context of indigenous rights and been deliberately shaped by a determination to respect and recognize those rights.

The GNWT supports self-determination of indigenous people and indigenous governments in the Northwest Territories and has developed as a public government with self-government in mind. Our system of partnership and public governance in the Northwest Territories was designed to ensure that indigenous views and priorities are reflected in public policy decisions and the design and delivery of public programs and services.

Indigenous people in the Northwest Territories participate in both public government and indigenous government in implementing regulatory frameworks and in building capacity in communities. Twelve of the 19 members of the legislative assembly today are indigenous, including five of seven cabinet ministers. Every premier since division of the territories in 1999 has been Dene or Métis, including me. Before this division, only two non-indigenous people have been premier or government leader.

Settled claims have established new, unique institutions of public government that guarantee indigenous governments' rights to participate in decisions about land and resource development. The Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, passed as part of the implementation of settled claims in the Northwest Territories, provides that indigenous governments have the authority to name members to the land and water boards that oversee decisions about land and resource development here.

I need to be clear that this does not mean indigenous people have a right to be heard by decision-makers. It means that, in the Northwest Territories, indigenous people are the decision-makers. This unified approach, unique to the Northwest Territories, was not an accident; it was a deliberate choice to ensure that indigenous rights are respected here in a territory they have called home for generations. Indigenous governments across the Northwest Territories own economic development corporations, which are active players in important projects that contribute to our GDP. Close collaboration with indigenous governments and corporations is one way the Government of the Northwest Territories is working toward reconciliation.

The Northwest Territories is in a more advanced place than many parts of the country in the area of settling claims and integrating programs and services for indigenous residents. Our system is integrated and considers the indigenous perspective as part of delivery. The conclusion of aboriginal land resources and self-government agreements has remained a priority for the GNWT. We are as eager as the federal government and indigenous governments to move forward with negotiations and implementation of self-government.

Canada has introduced several new approaches into negotiations. While on the face of it, these approaches should encourage innovative negotiations and more meaningful agreements, we have significant concerns. We understand the interests of all parties in advancing agreements. However, we feel that a lack of clarity in Canada's new approach is delaying rather than advancing processes—ambiguity around the newly released principles and other approaches that Canada seems to have discussed with indigenous organizations but haven't been explained to the Government of the Northwest Territories or other provincial or territorial governments. This is creating confusion and perhaps raising unrealistic expectations.

For example, Canada is now open to wide-ranging interest-based discussions, blending the specific claim and comprehensive claim models, broadening negotiations beyond existing agreements, and may no longer seek certainty in agreements. These developments run the risk of introducing delays into already lengthy processes as the parties assess new information, returning some negotiations to ground zero, wasting time and resources discussing things that are unlikely to be approved by any government, introducing uncertainty about the mechanics of implementation, and removing the ability of all governments to rely on final agreements. It's my understanding that the new principles have not been accompanied by changes to negotiating mandates, leaving parties to negotiations to try to guess at intents.

We are also concerned that Canada is in effect changing the rules of the game in the middle of the game. Indigenous governments with finalized agreements made calculated choices under the existing policies and rules. Clarity is required as to whether Canada will reopen negotiations in areas with settled agreements. Inequity may be created by allowing for increased flexibility only for those who have not been able to achieve agreements in the past.

Starting in the 1960s, the federal government began transferring program responsibility from Canada to the GNWT. The most recent of these devolutions was the transfer of responsibilities for lands, water, and resource management.

This last devolution was unique in that negotiations included not only Canada and the GNWT, but also indigenous governments. All indigenous governments were invited to the table, with most of them agreeing to participate.

Another unique feature of this last devolution was the creation of the intergovernmental council and the sharing of resource revenues. Now, in addition to the resource revenues included in settled rights agreements, the GNWT also shares 25% of the resource revenues from public lands with the Northwest Territories indigenous governments who signed the devolution agreement.

Aboriginal rights agreements affect every part of the way indigenous and public governments administer the Northwest Territories: the way we manage our lands, the way we deliver social services, the way we raise revenues, and the way we govern our communities.

Changes to the approach to new agreements create many questions for our government about how they will fit into our existing governance structures. This also creates a different kind of uncertainty for us. Our first priority is to provide continuous service to all our residents, with changes to those services focusing only on improvement.

We also want to make sure that existing work, both at the territorial government and at the community level, is not lost with change. As Canada considers changes to financial relationships, it is important that the unique program and service delivery models of the Northwest Territories be considered and, in our view, preserved.

We will continue to work within our government to advance self-government and support indigenous populations beyond negotiations, as well. The GNWT also continues to implement the relevant calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and support other efforts to address social and economic gaps between indigenous and non-indigenous northerners. We will also continue to engage with the federal government, with provinces and territories, and with indigenous governments as work around indigenous relations in Canada evolves.

Was that the bell?