Evidence of meeting #79 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was claim.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Herb Norwegian  Grand Chief, Dehcho First Nations
Harry St. Denis  Chief, Wolf Lake First Nation
Wayne McKenzie  Chief, Timiskaming First Nation
Cam Stewart  Director, Treaty and Aboriginal Rights Research Centre of Manitoba
Patricia Myran  Assistant Director, Treaty and Aboriginal Rights Research Centre of Manitoba
Douglas Eyford  Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual
Glenn Archie  Head Negotiator, Flood Claims Negotiations, Mishkosiminiziibiing First Nation

12:20 p.m.

Douglas Eyford Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Thank you for your indulgence, and thank you for inviting me to speak about the comprehensive land claims process. It's an important issue, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

In 2014, I was asked by Bernard Valcourt, who was then the minister of aboriginal affairs, to lead Canada's engagement with aboriginal groups and key stakeholders about the renewal of Canada's comprehensive land claims policy. I delivered a report to the minister based on my findings in February 2015. I appreciate that three years can be an eternity in the development and implementation of public policy, but nevertheless, I believe that many of the findings and recommendations in my report remain relevant, and I will be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have about the report.

I thought it would be useful to address three issues to get the discussion going. The first is the need, in my view, for Canada to maintain momentum at those treaty tables that have a realistic chance of a successful outcome. The reason I say that is when Minister Bennett was appointed two years ago, her mandate letter set out an ambitious agenda of 13 priorities. Modern treaty making, however, was not included among those priorities, leaving many in the process to wonder where comprehensive claims fit into the government's commitment to reconciliation. Of the approximately 75 land claims at various stages of negotiation, there are, in my view, probably only eight or 10 that have a realistic chance of coming to a successful conclusion. My point is that Canada should identify priority tables and focus resources on completing those negotiations. I do note that the most recent mandate letter from Minister Bennett now identifies accelerating the process in the comprehensive claims process as one of her priorities.

A consideration, at the same time, should be placed on sunsetting the comprehensive claims process. Any of the indigenous communities that are interested in negotiating a modern treaty have been in the process for at least a decade. There isn't a lineup of indigenous groups waiting to get in. That's why it's important, in my opinion, for Canada to look at other options for reconciliation for those communities that either aren't interested in the modern treaty process or aren't capable of completing a modern treaty.

I do want to acknowledge that in May 2016 Canada endorsed a series of proposals for improving and expediting the treaty negotiation process in British Columbia. That is a helpful and important initiative. As well, Canada in recent years has demonstrated that it is prepared to be flexible and creative in addressing the interests of indigenous groups outside of the treaty process. There's been a wide ambit to that initiative. I'll give two examples that members of the committee may not be aware of. The first is the establishment of the major projects management office in British Columbia, and the work that has ensued by that office. Second, the participation of NRCan, Environment Canada, and Transport Canada was a very successful initiative in terms of addressing aboriginal interests in the development of infrastructure on the north coast of British Columbia, and specifically with the development of natural gas pipelines and LNG plants.

I appreciate that the Government of Canada is a difficult ship to steer, and that's why all departments need to demonstrate an interest and an ability to participate meaningfully in reconciliation. That leads to my second point, which is this. In my experience, the most tangible and immediate contribution that governments can make to the process of reconciliation is to support and promote capacity development in indigenous communities. That observation comes from my work as a lawyer in private practice in British Columbia. Over the past decade, I've acted for first nations communities, governments, and industry in the negotiation of modern treaties, reconciliation protocols, and impact and benefit agreements.

While those negotiations provide tremendous opportunities for aboriginal participants, they are also overwhelmingly challenging. I think it goes without saying that change is difficult to manage, and that's the case even more so when community leaders lack experience in complex negotiations.

It's also important not to lose sight of the fact that these agreements often change the dynamics of long-standing adversarial relationships. In many remote parts of British Columbia and the Yukon, where I work, community members are simply not ready to take up the range of employment and contracting opportunities that are offered by resource development.

That leads to this point. There are areas where I believe the crown has a role to build and develop capacity. Those include, for one example, adult education, ensuring that community members have basic numeracy and literacy skills so that they're job ready. Second, the crown has a role in funding social supports to address issues such as substance abuse, addiction, child care, and housing. Somewhat remarkably, the lack of driver's licences is a significant impediment to first nations employment in many remote areas of the province. That's an area where I believe the crown has a role in developing capacity.

Then there's a more overarching concern about governance capacity for first nations community leaders. I believe this can be accomplished by the government supporting the exchange of experiences between first nations leaders in different regions. I have done a lot of work in the oil and gas industry. There's certainly a role, I think, for the leadership of Alberta first nations communities to provide British Columbia first nations leaders with examples of how they've been able to address oil and gas developments in their area.

Mentorships and other initiatives are also important in terms of governance capacity.

Comprehensive community planning and the development of training and employment strategies are, in my experience, essential tools but require government support and funding. By default, it's fallen in large part on industry to address these needs, and it's an area where I believe that governments need to step up.

I want to make the point that the emphasis that government's place on initiatives such as modern treaties and implementing the United Nations declaration don't mean much in communities that struggle with chronic unemployment, poor educational outcomes, and pervasive social issues.

My third point relates to the implementation of modern treaties, and this will be my last point, Madam Chair. Although I wasn't asked to consider treaty implementation, when I prepared my report in 2014, it quickly became apparent that Canada has fallen behind in implementing treaty commitments. To illustrate this, many of you will be aware of the implementation problems with the James Bay and Northern Quebec agreement, which led to civil litigation and ultimately a settlement in the amount of $1.4 billion. Treaty implementation is a problem. The Supreme Court of Canada has made it clear that the honour of the crown must inform the interpretation and implementation of modern treaties.

I know that you heard from Marg Rosling, who is a Vancouver lawyer who acts for the Nisga'a government. She made submissions to you on treaty implementation, and I concur fully with the submissions you've heard on that point.

I'll conclude on the point that modern treaty making is a complex and challenging undertaking. For any of you who are interested in the history of modern treaty making, all you need to do is look at the initial policy that was released in 1973 by Jean Chrétien, who was the minister of Indian affairs at the time. It's a two-page document. Events have quickly demonstrated that the challenges for governments and for first nations communities are, in many ways, overwhelming.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and members of the committee. Those are my opening comments.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Thank you.

If we continue with our series of questions, we will go to MP Cathy McLeod.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Madam Chair, I'll be sharing my time with Kevin Waugh.

Thank you to the witnesses who are here.

Your top recommendation is dramatically different from others we've heard, which is basically to throw out the processes, from what I gather. We've heard of many communities who believe that it's created significant benefit once they reach that point, and I understand the research indicates that. I know there are many other avenues. I'm from British Columbia also, and many in the area I represent have chosen other paths forward, royalty sharing and other ways to define their success. I don't think there would be an acceptance that there wouldn't be some kind of process available to communities that had that aspiration of a comprehensive modern treaty.

Could I get you to respond to that?

12:30 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

To be clear, I'm not advocating throwing the process out. What I'm saying is that after several decades of experience with the modern treaty process, there are only eight to 10 communities left that have a chance of getting over the finishing line. I appreciate the point that some communities have made, that spending two or three decades in the treaty process has been a way for them to build capacity, but it's come at significant expense to the Government of Canada. The amount of negotiation loans and capacity funding exceeds a billion dollars, and surely there are better ways for the government to promote capacity building in first nations communities.

You'll know Judy Wilson, who spoke to this committee, and I know is from your area. She is one of the executives of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. That organization is vehemently opposed to the treaty process. They see reconciliation being accomplished through a different process. It's quite clear in British Columbia that more than half of the Indian Act bands in that province have elected not to participate in the treaty process, which I think provides the government with the challenge of finding different ways to address the reconciliation of their interests with the crown.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

In your report, you talked about funding negotiations. I'm going to quote here. It's “led to high debt loads in Aboriginal communities” and has become “unsustainable”, which we've heard in the last month or so. Now you've recommended that first nations not borrow money to negotiate treaties and that Canada should forgive the debt.

That was part of your report.

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of it.

What I said was that there has to be a better way to fund aboriginal participation in the process. You have a situation now where the BC Treaty Commission is saying that it's none of Canada's business how those monies have been spent by first nations. The debt in some communities is so overwhelming that they're afraid to pull out of the process because they have a requirement to repay the debt. Canada is going to have to do something to reconcile the fact that monies have been drawn down by many of these communities.

The recommendation I made was that Canada should identify a process to fund negotiations going forward. What I recommended was something that is similar to the tariff process in civil litigation. The government says it will provide them with up to x number of dollars to get through various stages of the process, instead of having an open chequebook saying that it will underwrite whatever costs they take. It's up to the first nations communities in those circumstances to reconcile what kinds of experts, or lawyers, or accountants, or other third party service providers they are going to retain, and how they're going to pay those persons if the cost exceeds the amount of the tariff.

The issue of loan funding is a very significant one, and it's one where I think that the way the Government of Canada has been doing things needs to be changed.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I can't disagree.

Third parties are often at the trough on these agreements. We've seen that.

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

There was a comment made by Murray Coolican, who was retained in 1985 to review the status of modern treaty negotiations. He made the point that the commitment to provide negotiation funding shouldn't lead to treaties becoming a cottage industry. In many ways, that's what's happened over the course of the past three decades.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you. I agree with you 100%. When you go across the country as we did, you see that certain areas are more educated on this than others. Some have been taken to the cleaners. They are left with $70 million or $80 million that they have no way of recapturing until this whole thing is written off 10 or 20 years down the road.

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

This leads to the issue of why it takes decades to complete agreements.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

We've studied that. Keep going.

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

One of the points I made in my report was that, although these are complex agreements, it really shouldn't take parties in the process 15, 20, 25, 30 years to complete a treaty.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

What should it take?

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Eyford Macaulay LLP, As an Individual

Douglas Eyford

It's hard to say. Some of the agreements I've negotiated with industry, where there is an imperative to get the deal done, have taken up to two or three years. I appreciate that treaties are immensely complex but, in my view, they shouldn't take any more than three to five years to complete.

The features of a treaty are pretty standard. You are not going to persuade the Government of Canada or the Government of British Columbia to do something different from what they've done in other treaty contexts. The challenge is for first nations that want a treaty to identify why they want a treaty. I think the experience of the Tsawwassen band and the Nisga'a demonstrates that there has to be an overarching interest in the community to want to address this interest through treaty. That's really where I think the emphasis should be.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I probably have 30 seconds.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You're running out of time fast.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Okay.

Patricia, you are the first one who has brought up the AFN and their involvement.

What involvement do they have? You did mention it here. I wrote it down, the joint technical working group. What's their involvement in it?

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Director, Treaty and Aboriginal Rights Research Centre of Manitoba

Patricia Myran

The AFN represents all the first nations across Canada.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

We know that.

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Director, Treaty and Aboriginal Rights Research Centre of Manitoba

Patricia Myran

Their involvement in the—

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

The joint technical working group.

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Director, Treaty and Aboriginal Rights Research Centre of Manitoba

Patricia Myran

They formed the joint technical working group with INAC and research organizations across Canada to come together at the table and try to rectify the specific claims process.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

I think that runs out your time.

Welcome to Big Grassy.

This meeting is very unusual in that we are not starting in a timely manner. It's not normal, but that's all right. It's just like the treaty process; it's unique.

This time, I understand there is agreement that we are going to hear from you, Glenn. We'll give you 10 minutes to present, and we are going to extend the length of the meeting by 15 minutes. Is there agreement to this?

Cathy, go ahead.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

We certainly agreed to that, with the indication that if people had other commitments, there would be no ability to do motions or any of those sorts of issues.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Agreed. I understand there is agreement.

Glenn Archie, welcome. We look forward to hearing from you.