Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 19th, 2016

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, I will yield to the member's question on prisons.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I wanted to quickly mention that the comparison of the justice system to the residential schools certainly breaks my heart. It's not something that I really linked up until now, but there's a lot of truth in it, and I think the whole corrections system has to be reviewed and overhauled. There are so many gaps that we need to fill in making it a fair process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

The last question for the Office of the Correctional Investigator will be from Cathy McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thanks to all of you. I think it's the first time we've met. I don't think you have been to the health or finance committees.

I also want to mention the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Obviously, you feel these are some good recommendations in the path forward. I'm looking at the 94 of them, and as I'm looking at recommendation numbers one through five, to me, number one is really a sort of goal, and maybe numbers two, three, and four are ways to move towards reaching that goal. Is that how you see numbers one through four? Number one is a goal to eliminate the overrepresentation, but it's not really a method to get there, whereas maybe two, three, and four are.

[Howard Sapers]

Thank you very much for your question. I think it is our first meeting, so hello.

In my reading of the TRC report and the “way forward” statements, it is of course clear that it's highly aspirational. It's also clear that this is a marker that has been laid down for not just this government but for governments to come. These things are not going to come quickly. There was the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in years past.... The TRC is certainly not the first report to make similar recommendations, but hopefully it will be the last one that's necessary to make these recommendations.

I think intermixed with those 94 statements are some highly aspirational goals, and also some really specific prescriptive actions that need to be taken. Clearly, it's now the government's job to figure out how to parse that and how to move forward.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Let's assume that number one is an aspirational goal. Would you say that numbers two, three, and four perhaps would be some of the most effective ways to get to number one? Or are there other things you believe should be...?

[Howard Sapers]

I'm just going to go back to—

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Or are there other things that you believe should be...?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Perhaps you'll let me comment on this.

I think personally that if I were asked to pick only one performance indicator on whether the actions of the Government of Canada were improving the situation of aboriginal people in Canada, I would take the incarceration rate. Let me tell you that in social sciences, it's very rare that you have an actual linear relationship between time and a particular event.

Thirty years ago, 10% of the federal inmate population were aboriginal. Twenty years ago, it moved up to 15%. Ten years ago it was 20%; and now we're at 25%. If the government can actually stop or, even better, reverse that trend, it will mean that it has made some gains in other areas, such as social, economic, cultural, and political rights, and that you will have seen better employment, better education, better health care, better self-determination. I think this is where the government should focus its attention, so as to see that whatever it's doing, more of the same will not reverse the trend.

My prediction is that it will be at 30% soon.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

From recommendation number 3, which is probably one of the areas you'd be more familiar with, are there institutions that have good aboriginal healing lodges in place? Has there actually been research and some studies concerning their effectiveness? Are reports of those on your website, or could you table them with the committee?

[Howard Sapers]

Yes, and in fact, thank you for that. I was going to focus on recommendation 3 and healing lodges and to point out that the “Spirit Matters” report, the special report tabled in the fall of 2013, is in large part about eliminating the barriers to healing lodges. In some ways, for this current recommendation by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, you already have a road map on how to get there. All of these TRC recommendations are big. It will take, I think, many, many steps to operationalize any of them. I can tell you that for healing lodges, you have a pretty good road map in the “Spirit Matters” report.

Unfortunately, we did not get the kind of response we wanted from Correctional Service Canada or the government when it was tabled. There's a place to go to look at those responses and to see what needs to be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you for the question and the responses.

In fact, Mr. Sapers and Dr. Zinger, thank you very much for your time today and the information you're leaving behind. As I mentioned, if you could leave your opening speaking notes, it would help our hard-working analysts a great deal, to have them at their disposal.

Thank you.

[Howard Sapers]

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Committee members, rather than suspend for a moment, I'd like to keep rolling here and go right into committee business.

May I have a motion to go in camera.

[An hon. member]

I so move.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

(Motion agreed to)

[Proceedings continue in camera]