Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 8th, 2018

[Craig Lingard]

You're obviously knowledgeable about the challenges we face.

For the sake of time, I'll try to summarize. Within our region, we are very young. We have a population that's growing exponentially. I believe the last census puts our population under the age of 25 at close to 60% of our regional population, so that's very high growth and an expanding population factor.

That said, we have limited demographics and limited resources that we can call upon. We have many people in small communities who wear many hats, and we ask those who are capable of doing to do as much as they can and more. We have volunteer firefighters, volunteer first responders, and volunteer Canadian Rangers. We have many who step up and meet the call.

That said, volunteering is not necessarily in the same sense that we know it traditionally in the country, because employment and salaried or great jobs or good jobs are very hard to find, so remuneration for any volunteer is very important.

I don't mean to digress here. I just want to try to touch on all of it for your question.

With regard to housing, it's probably one of the most complicated and compounding issues we face. We are facing a shortage of I believe 800 to 1,000 housing units in the region, depending on the last census, the last survey. It's not uncommon to see three and four generations living in a house. We have parents with children and their common-law spouses with their children living in the same house, as well as elders. It's not uncommon to see more than 10 or 12 people living in a three-bedroom house. This causes major problems for many reasons. Also, if we do lose a house to a fire, it just compounds all of the problems exponentially and socially. Because of the climate, the geography, and the remoteness, we can't deal with that for probably a year after the fact, so it's a very devastating issue when we do have fires.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I'm going to cut you off for a second, because I'd like to hear from Kellyann, if I may.

If you want to get more answers in later, you can fit them into somebody else's question.

[Kellyann Meloche]

Thank you very much.

What I noticed is that he was talking about someone who wears many hats in the community. It's that lack of human resources. I touched on that earlier about the training. It's nice to have the truck, but if you don't have the training and knowledge to use it, it's useless. In terms of having that one person in the community who is the do-all, the go-getter, or the champion, they're great, but they can't do it all, especially in emergency management.

In terms of knowing and having that resource available to do the emergency social services, who's going to look after it in the event that we have to evacuate? How about what we can do prior to evacuation? What types of prevention methods can we use? How can we clean up the areas around our homes—being fire smart in the FireSmart program—for communities to protect their homes from forest fires or wildland fires? Those types of things would definitely help greatly. It's about getting that information out to the communities, knowing where all the communities are, what the population is there, and then saying, “Here are the resources available to you.”

Like I said, they don't know what doors to knock on. They don't know what programs are out there. It's unfortunate, but I have not seen DIAND go out to say, “Guess what—here's all the funding that's available to you.” There is a certain base amount that's available for an emergency coordinator. Did they know that? No, they didn't know that, so now they have to go out and get it. It's about being aware of what's available to them. Honestly, knowledge is the key for sure.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

The questioning now moves to MP Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thanks again to all of you for coming, and thanks, Craig, for getting connected through a land line. They still exist, which is good.

We've sat around this table for weeks. You are the final group to come to us. We've talked about Kamloops. We've talked about the northern fires in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. With all due respect, with all the talk we've had here for a month to two months, we're waiting for the next catastrophe. We haven't learned from Fort McMurray. We haven't learned a damn thing from Slave Lake.

This committee is the most frustrating, because this report is going to go probably nowhere. The next catastrophe will come. We just don't know where. What are doing? All the talk I've heard for the last eight weeks means nothing. I haven't heard a solution. I have heard some ideas.

Go ahead, Mr. Tracey.

[Sean Tracey]

Thank you.

As somebody who has given testimony post those incidents, in my role with the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness and with the National Fire Protection Association, I would say we have solutions. We identified, probably 10 years ago, the requirement to introduce into the National Building Code the requirement to identify and require higher standards of construction in areas that are prone to wildland-urban interface fires so that there is the proper separation, requirements, and protection for those.

It's similar to when we build in a seismic zone or we build in high-wind areas. This is a risk. We require higher standards of protection in those communities, and those construction methods work. We know that through the National Fire Protection Association.

The FireSmart or the Firewise programs are education programs that can be brought into these communities as a requirement as well when they identify these risk components, and build capabilities so they understand how to....

All of these materials are out there. We need them in the building codes. We have been trying, but we have been stymied in the building codes and given the runaround—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

By who?

[Sean Tracey]

—by the Canadian codes commission and those who have a specific interest in making sure that higher standards of construction are not required for houses—the home builders.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

How do we get this changed?

[Sean Tracey]

Direct it. Order it. Just as we have higher requirements now for higher energy standards on homes, require the codes to protect and identify the requirements for wildland-urban interface protection.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

As parliamentarians, within the next month, we're going to see a TV clip of another house that has been burned on a reserve. Ninety per cent of them probably don't have fire detectors, and carbon monoxide detectors are not even on the radar for most of these reserves. Let's face it.

The building codes are atrocious and we've talked about that. Nobody wants to fix that, as you just said.

As parliamentarians, we sit around here and we're talking about fire safety and emergency management. It doesn't matter what part of the country you come from; it's the same story.

Tina, maybe just as the executive director—

This is frustrating for us, because this is going to happen again and again and again.

[Tina Saryeddine, Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs]

Thank you for the opportunity, and certainly we support what Chief Tracey has presented.

I think part of connecting the dots involves finding the mechanics that you can leverage backstage. For example, in terms of the country's building codes, it's not just on reserves or in the aboriginal communities where that's a problem. It's a problem writ large, so how do you grasp some of these issues that are not specific only to aboriginal communities?

In terms of the building codes committee, which Chief Tracey co-chairs, we've asked the federal government to assist the fire service in strengthening its voice by allowing it to have better resources for research and innovation. Right now when we want to put in a change to the building code we have to go through the same process that industry or academia would have to go through. Fire departments aren't resourced to do that, so we don't stand a good chance of changing the building code.

I think part of it, as you said, for parliamentarians is to understand the very complex process that goes on backstage to the building code process, so we certainly appreciate the line of questions and the focus on solutions.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Craig, if you don't mind, you're so remote. You have language issues; you're very isolated; and you've been a community for only 30 years, but boy, have you done a pretty good job—70 firefighter 1s.

Maybe you can just talk about that, because it's going to take hours to get to you, and you guys are on your own. Let's face it: you're so far north that it's up to you to solve all the issues.

[Craig Lingard]

We have been very autonomous, and I liken it to the will and the passion of the people in the region here.

In 1999 we sustained a devastating accident, which created civil security with the regional government. In 2001 the provincial government, by decree, asked everybody to do a statement of risk or a fire safety cover plan. We committed to that process and entered into one in 2011.

We're now in the process of revitalizing it. We've identified priorities, and we've committed to a reasonable plan of action over a timeline. We need continued funding to address infrastructure, capital assets, training needs, and personnel with skills, but the bottom line is empowering those who have the will and the skill to take care of our own people. It's working with the resources in the region, optimizing local resources, I think, and partnering of course with our federal and provincial partners.

To that end, I think we need better collaboration with federal partners in our region. We don't have direct or timely access to all programs. We sometimes don't know or aren't aware of the appropriate programs, such as those through Public Safety National Search and Rescue Secretariat, or others, for example.

Thank you.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

You both mentioned education.

I'm out of time. Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Next we're going to MP Georgina Jolibois.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I was a small-town mayor and was responsible for the local fire department, which was based on limited resources. Over the years, the community has done well because the rules applied in the provincial area are different from the rules applied on the reserve. The federal government is responsible for the reserve.

How can we place pressure on the federal government to allow for the same rules you're talking about, things like FireSmart and the long list of things we do? I see that frustration when I go on reserve because of the limitations felt by the rules in place federally. How can we improve that? That's a loaded question, but I want to ask that question.

[Sean Tracey]

Again, we think the key to that is the second prong of the approach we were suggesting. That was community-based risk assessments, similar to what we have seen in Quebec with the schéma de couverture de risques. Every community has to do a risk-based model, and from that, it dictates the level of service standards it should have. Through the service-level agreements, DISC would then fund the community to that full level of service. Maybe we should then have, according to these service-level standards, an equivalent fire department with four full-time personnel and a full-time fire chief. The funding is there. They get the equipment and the maintenance funds to sustain that and make it happen. They then get ongoing training and support in the budget to make that happen.

The problem is that a lot of times these communities don't understand the resources and don't have assistance, and we need this fire marshal's office to be able to assist them, support them, and drive them through that risk process and assessment to get them the resources, help them meet the NFPA 1001 standards and certifications, and have these programs set up. We believe it will build this capability by having that level of service comparable to a neighbouring non-aboriginal community.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

[Kellyann Meloche]

The communities need to realize.... Every time I go to a community and help teach them, I always tell them that they're on their own and that they need to understand they are responsible for their community and people. Then I ask them what plan we can make, what mitigation efforts we can do, and what training we can have. Anything extra is an added bonus, but I want them to plan. I want them to mitigate now as if they're by themselves and on their own. That then opens the eyes.

It's like when your child finally turns of age, you kick them out the door and say that they're on their own. You're not paying their rent or groceries anymore. It's like that, and asking how we can mitigate it and protect our community. We need to work together and stick together. That then makes them stronger. It's that reality check that help might be hundreds of kilometres away or hours away.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Craig, can you answer that question?

[Craig Lingard]

That's a pretty tough question. I understand. We are living it up here in that we have young communities. Amongst all of the challenges they have to face in municipal management and governance, they have an obligation to create and maintain a capable fire department and emergency services—and they do that without adequate funding. Because of the nature of our communities, we do not have industry to draw taxation from, so all of our funding comes from a government source or municipal service.

Any money we give to the fire service, we have to negotiate every time we have a need, and we're trying to do that more efficiently and more effectively through the fire safety cover plan process. We're optimistic, but it's always a challenge, and we're always chasing. We're always chasing and always depending on the generosity or on the partnership or on the understanding.

That being said, we've put a lot of energy and creativity into prevention programs and education. We visit the schools and talk with the kids at different ages. We try to have every house in our community visited once a year for fire safety to review the use of their life-safety devices, their means of egress.

We try to work with housing providers to make sure they're up to date on any issues that are dangerous, and work in partnership with education and prevention with them as well. It's a multi-faceted, multi-level approach, but we can't rely on any one agency or individual to achieve it. It has to be co-operative, and it has to be grassroots.

But we need access to adequate funding, and we need to implement long-term strategies with short-term goals.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Tracey, you talked about the Aboriginal Firefighters Association. I'm curious. We heard from our friend over there saying that what she said is the indigenous communities must be consulted, must be asked, must play a key role in it, with the Aboriginal Firefighters Association and the Canadian association.

What kind of relationship is there between the two?

[Sean Tracey]

Right now, the Aboriginal Firefighters Association of Canada is one of our affiliate associations that are on our national advisory council and have direct input in dealing with the CAFC on a regular basis.