Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 18th, 2020

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are these two motions? Jamie has a motion and Jaime has...?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That's what I want clarification on from the chair, if I could.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Yes. I have two motions and we're only allowed one at a time.

I wasn't sure whether Jaime was going to comment directly on yours, but that's fair. We've had a good discussion on it.

Let me take Mr. Schmale's motion first because it won't interfere with—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Can I just basically respond to that before we have a vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Sure.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you.

I agree with what you're saying. That would be a wonderful idea and I'm more than happy to talk about it, but Gary said something about.... I had proposed that next Thursday, instead of the regularly scheduled meeting, we do the planning meeting. Then if we want to do what you suggested on Tuesday, that way we've already set the agenda this week and won't have to wait until next Thursday to deal with moving forward. We can actually get rolling.

I guess I'm happy to make the motion in official terms, but....

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I think the issue is whether Jaime's point was that we do the blanket ceremony first before we proceed to the order of work.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Is he ready to do it on Thursday or do you want to wait until next week?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

It really comes down to our analysts and our clerk to see if it's possible to put that together. It would have to be part of formal business, but whether you are able to convene the right elders to be able to put together a blanket ceremony for Thursday....

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Yes.

[Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

I don't even know where to begin.

Being a part of this committee is more than just an exercise that you do once to say, “Okay now I know more about indigenous histories, indigenous peoples.” The blanket exercise itself, and I'm one of two self-identifying Inuit in the 338, totally excludes Inuit and Métis groups. For us to have a productive and ongoing discussion, learning doesn't stop there. You don't do the blanket exercise and say, “Okay, I've learned my history.”

People who are fortunate enough to learn and know that history.... I'm self-taught. I didn't know anything about my people either until I started teaching myself and looking for that information. It's an ongoing process. I think it's great that we want to have something like that. We need to be careful about tokenism of ceremony and the exercises that we do. That's also something that everybody in the committee should be invested in outside of this committee.

Let's not carve out time for this one particular thing. Let's make a personal investment in educating ourselves and becoming more aware. When we talk about the issues that indigenous peoples face...and wording is so important. It's not indigenous issues. It's not an issue because we're indigenous. It's an issue that we, indigenous peoples, face.

In saying all of this, I think it's important that we know that history. Often the federal government has played the biggest role in the situations we see indigenous peoples and indigenous groups in today. Now we need to be part of that solution. How can we do that if we don't know the history, if we don't acknowledge that there are three distinct groups? Even within our three indigenous groups there are massive differences.

My point is to steer away from tokenism. People need to have a personal investment in educating themselves and in becoming more aware of the history of indigenous peoples to have a better understanding of where we're at today.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you for your interjection. Thank you for your suggestion as well.

Many of us MPs and MLAs—I was an MLA for 10 years before coming here—have first nations communities within our ridings. Some people interact more than others, taking it upon themselves to learn the history, the culture, to spend time with our first nations constituents, and others don't. I think where Jaime is coming from is a place where having two indigenous people on this committee, I think he was hoping that perhaps the rest of us could start on a good foot and come together and do an exercise that might include everybody.

Are you saying that the blanket exercise does not include Inuit culture? Is that the point that you're trying to make?

[Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Yes, and Métis.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay.

Are there any other exercises that perhaps could include all indigenous communities from coast to coast to coast?

[Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm happy to do my research and provide that. I think that as a committee we could come together and look for those resources, and find them.

You're a Nunavik riding. A lot of your constituents are Inuk. You keep saying first nations. How much do we know around the table. We have an amazing wealth of knowledge around the table. I think we can feed off that, as opposed to steering towards tokenism. We're hoping to learn from you, to hear your suggestions, that you're going to provide this information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I have Bob Zimmer on my list.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Let's go back to the first motion on the table. It sounds as if there needs to be some more discussion about what's appropriate and what isn't, who's included and who's not. That would be appropriate at the subcommittee. It falls in line with the motion on the floor right now. That's where I would recommend it to go, for that group to discuss how we proceed and to give it a full understanding. A study may be a strong word for committees. A study can last for months, but at least we'll have that discussion to know where to go and that we're going in the right direction.

Chair, we should go back to the motion Mr. Schmale has put on the table and let's look at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Once again, I don't see how one interferes with the other. We need to circulate the information we have.

I'll read the motion:

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure meet on Thursday, February 20, 2020, to discuss future business of the committee.

That motion is on the floor. Can I ask the committee if you're in favour of that motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I understand, Mr. Schmale, that you also want us to circulate, through the clerk's office, the material we've already prepared, and that you'll do the same. Then we'll all have it.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes. The subcommittee will deal with that. That's also the issue we're talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Right.

On the other question, then—I'm fascinated by this conversation, because it's a learning experience for all of us—do I see a problem in having a blanket exercise, as we're not intending to exclude the Inuit people, who aren't represented in the blanket exercise?

Mr. Powlowski, go ahead, please.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I appreciate that the idea of tokenism but I don't think it's intended that way. I think we certainly appreciate that part of being on this committee is that it's an educational process for all of us. What we know about indigenous affairs doesn't stop with this committee.

I think Jaime has expressed an interest in doing this. Couldn't we, for example, allow you to do something afterwards that you think is appropriate for the Inuit? From our side, it would seem to me that this is a good way of starting it off, to hear about the history of the indigenous people from the indigenous perspective.

We thought that this was a good way of starting the process. I don't think we intended to alienate Inuit people by doing it this way. Couldn't we have some compromise and say, yes, we can do this, and then you can do something later? I think we all realize that the two of you have a special status in this committee that the rest of us don't have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I have Mr. Battiste on my speakers list, but I'll advise the committee that theoretically we're going to move this to the subcommittee, which, once again, will meet on Thursday prior to our next formal meeting. By then, we should have a more fulsome discussion and move on from there.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to leave the continuing discussion to the subcommittee?

Jaime, you want to make a comment.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

My comment is that one of the things was the hope that we would start off learning a little bit about each other by doing things together. I might be naive in believing that as a committee we can work together on issues, but first we seek to understand. While the blanket exercise is one exercise that we can do, if you have other things you believe, that is important.

This is not about tokenism. This is about understanding. This is about giving folks who didn't have an opportunity in their school system, or who didn't get a chance to learn off the land, a glimpse of our history and, in doing so, hoping that we move forward in the spirit of reconciliation. This is part of the calls to action. This is part of our first steps on this journey towards reconciliation. This is why it has been placed in front of us, in saying, “Can we move forward together as a first step in learning?” If there needs to be an appendix or an additional discussion.... If I look at the blanket exercise, it's not reflective of every single nation—I'm a Mi'kmaq—but I believe it's a really good tool to show the history of colonization in Canada. It talks about some of the things the TRC has mentioned.

Really, what I'm looking at is trying to start off in a good way, to start off in a way that seeks to listen and to hear, and to participate in something that is being used across Canada by different treaty commissions. The whole point of this, I feel, is that we can move forward in the spirit of reconciliation if we first start off by listening and opening our hearts and our minds in a good way. That was the intention of this. I think it would be historic for this committee to take this on.

I'm more than happy to discuss at subcommittee how we can involve the Métis and Inuit if the feeling is that they are excluded from this exercise. The way I've seen it done, it's not excluding, but it's perhaps done differently in Nova Scotia than it is done in other places. I was the treaty education lead for Nova Scotia.

I would just say that I think this is something that would be a historic first for us. It's in line with the TRC calls to action. I would keep the motion as is. I would like to do this and go down this exercise first, before we start making priorities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Let me see the motion again.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We already passed that motion.