Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2020

[Tabatha Bull]

I think that's the question everybody might be asking. It's not only dependent on what province you're in. Here in Toronto, an indigenous restaurant, NishDish, which was highly popular, recently had to close. They had started fundraising to be able to keep open, and are looking to relocate, but at this point they've closed, which is definitely quite upsetting for the indigenous community in Toronto. I think we're still going to see some businesses that have closed and may not recover, and we'll potentially need to send them a new business model.

I think a lot of the concern too is going to be our individual fear about getting back to socializing together in a small area across the country. The risk assessment they're doing to provide funding is no different from what they've done in the past, and if you're in a sector like tourism or restaurants, you're going to have a high-risk rating and less chance of being able to access traditional funding, which is why the funding through AFIs and specific funding to those at-risk sectors is very important.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, I agree with you totally. The risk for restaurant owners specifically is quite tough. What is your opinion, based on the feedback you're getting or from the information flowing through your office?

I agree everyone's asking for an answer to this question. I'm curious on the aboriginal side. If restaurants are only to able to potentially take 50% capacity, that doesn't change the fact that their food costs are the same or going up, utilities are the same or going up, rent continues. Is there a path forward for restaurants or other businesses to be able to continue to make a profit as we go forward under these conditions without a cure or vaccine?

[Tabatha Bull]

We don't have that specific information from our members. I think we're definitely seeing that it's going to take some ability to pivot to a new type of restaurant delivery service or potentially.... A restaurant in Sudbury just opened for indigenous cuisine, and they've now moved to a restaurant truck and are delivering to their community. I think without some type of injection, it's very difficult to see how those businesses are going to survive.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Ms. Bull, if I could just quickly pivot for a second, in an article on May 1 you mentioned that one of the biggest hurdles to indigenous business recovery stems from the outdated Indian Act, which prevents indigenous entrepreneurs from owning the land their business sits on and makes it difficult for them to raise the collateral needed to qualify for loans from traditional lending institutions. Can you elaborate more on that, but also does your organization have a road map on how to deconstruct the Indian Act?

[Tabatha Bull]

No, I wouldn't say we have a road map. Just to elaborate more—and Shannin was speaking to this as well—it is very difficult for indigenous businesses on reserve to access funding. That's why the funding that comes through AFIs is so important.

A number of the larger major banks have also been able to work in interim balance sheets and be able to look at that risk and assess the businesses on their merits without the collateral of owning the land they sit on, but that has been one of the largest barriers for indigenous business across this country for many years. That's partially why they don't normally access traditional financial institutions, because the risk rating without being able to use the land as collateral is so high. That's why, at the outset of the pandemic, NACCA, together with Cando and AFOA sent a joint letter asking for additional stimulus financing for equity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We're out of time. Thank you.

We'll now go for five minutes to Jaime Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Bull, I want to talk a little about some of the barriers to on-reserve businesses. I've received calls from local bands that I represent about general loss of own-source revenue from gaming, tobacco and fishing. For all these reasons, bands were looking to the government for help with the wage subsidy.

I know our government included indigenous government-owned corporations that are carrying on a business, as well as eligible partnerships with indigenous governments. Have you seen the impact of this policy shift on the ground yet?

[Tabatha Bull]

Yes, we've definitely heard from members who have now been able to apply for the wage subsidy and are quite pleased to be able to do so. We got an email recently from a member who, because of those changes, was able to hire their staff back, and they are quite happy to do that.

It had a significant impact on a number of the large economic development corporations, and the wage subsidy has made a big difference.

There is still some discussion about some businesses that are indigenous government-owned but not incorporated, and we're looking into whether that may be an additional gap for those businesses, as the regulations speak to an incorporated business.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Can you speak a little bit about the difference on that? I've had that same question from some bands that asked about this business or that business. How has it been communicating what is eligible and what hasn't been? Are you getting a lot of questions on this?

[Tabatha Bull]

Yes, I hold a weekly open call, not just for our members but for any indigenous business that has questions. No one expected there to be over 200 support programs. Definitely there is need for increased awareness and assistance to all businesses, but specifically indigenous businesses, to really look at where they are eligible, where to go for financing and even if we look to the regional development agency financing.... Where is the best place for them to be able to move or to be able to access those programs? It has been definitely a lot of our work to help businesses understand the eligibility criteria and when things are available.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I just want to pivot. I know we are all looking at COVID and still trying to find the gaps and making sure that we leave no one behind, but in terms of the next phase of recovery, what are some of the things our government can do? What are you recommending to help indigenous businesses across Canada? On and off reserve, what are some of the key things we need to do during the recovery phase to make sure we are not leaving small or large indigenous businesses behind?

[Tabatha Bull]

There are a couple of opportunities. One I spoke to, of course, is procurement. We need to be setting targets and metrics to ensure that the federal government is procuring from indigenous business and measuring against that target. Everyone says that things don't happen unless they are measured, so procurement is a real area where we can make some moves on economic recovery.

The shovel-ready projects are also a really great opportunity, so we are looking at shovel-ready projects that have indigenous businesses as equity participants or are committed to using an indigenous business in their supply chain.

Another key area is more for provincial governments, but there is orphan well funding as well. The federal government has an ability to say to provinces that they need to ensure they are working with indigenous business for orphan well funding.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have a minute and 10 seconds.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay, I'll just add a question in terms of communication. I was at a store on the reserve yesterday. I went in, and they were asking me questions about programming and things like that. Is there any place that people on reserve can go to see where these programs exist? If so, how?

[Tabatha Bull]

We and other organizations have a resource page on our website that shows the different support programs that are available and provincial and territorial programs as well. We also are part of the Canadian business resilience network, working with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

However, I do think there is a need for a navigator or a pathfinder type of tool, and we have been talking to Indigenous Services Canada about this idea that a business owner could go in and select on reserve or off reserve, and, depending on their size, it would tell them the programs that are available specific to their business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

That just about brings us to time. Thank you very much.

Now we go to Mr. Viersen for five minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests for being here today.

I'd like to continue in a similar vein of questioning as Ms. Damoff.

For Ms. Bull, around procurement, I'm curious if you have any success stories to share with us of how indigenous businesses have been able to land procurement contracts with the federal government?

[Tabatha Bull]

Through this period, no, we don't, unfortunately. We do have some businesses that are working with corporate Canada, indigenous businesses that are supplying hand sanitizer, for example to the Bank of Montreal. Chief Fuels is an example of a business out east that has pivoted to start to provide hand sanitizer with a local maple syrup distributor. They are providing that hand sanitizer to the Province of New Brunswick and, I believe, the Province of Ontario.

These are indigenous businesses that either were originally in this space or have pivoted to do so, and they have been able to access contracts with corporate Canada and with provinces, but not yet with the federal government.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

From what I've been hearing a bit about, there seems to be, on the federal government side, some sort of approval process to even bid on some of these potential projects. That seems to be an onerous process. Have you heard anything in that regard as well?

[Tabatha Bull]

Initially, the biggest thing for a lot of businesses was standards that were continuing to change on the masks and the different types of PPE, and for businesses having to try to keep up with that standard. Then, yes, to go through to get the MDEL number, that's another process. I know the procurement teams are moving more quickly on getting those approvals out there, but we just have some businesses that immediately wanted to provide to Buyandsell, put their information into Buyandsell, and then subsequently there was a requirement for these registration numbers. That wasn't necessarily communicated to all the businesses.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, that's what I've been getting from them. They said that they already went through the process, were an approved vendor for the federal government, and now they seem to have to do it again through a different process.

[Tabatha Bull]

Yes, this seems to be another requirement to get a new registration number that not all businesses were aware of. We have had some businesses that brought that to our attention, and we brought that to PSPC's attention.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Have none of your members landed a contract with the federal government at this point?

[Tabatha Bull]

That's correct.