Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We're back.

I would like to start this meeting by acknowledging that we are meeting today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Over the past 21 days, opposition to the Coastal GasLink pipeline has taken a critical turn. For 21 days, Ottawa has been unable to ensure peace, order and good government. For 21 days, the federal government has failed to meet its fundamental obligation.

There is an urgent need to end to this crisis, but also to understand it. We need to see what is at the root of this crisis, to know the source from which it comes. We need to know why the federal government has waited so long to take responsibility and why it still refuses to do so fully. We also need to look at what is being done to resolve the crisis. Since the government is accountable to Parliament, it must be accountable for its actions on this issue.

The Minister of Indigenous Services has repeatedly stated in the public arena that negotiations were under way with the hereditary chiefs. What is the status of these negotiations?

I understand that negotiations should not be held in public. However, parliamentarians should be minimally informed of what is going on. I am therefore prepared to hear some testimony behind closed doors, so as not to compromise these negotiations. However, it would be highly desirable to reassure parliamentarians regarding the status of the negotiations. It is in the public interest for parliamentarians to be informed of the situation.

It is important that the committee address this issue as soon as possible to make recommendations to the government. I am convinced that the public interest would be greatly served by independent advice on this crisis, such as that provided by this committee.

Since the beginning of the crisis, the Bloc Québécois has made many proposals. First of all, we called for a crisis unit to be set up with Ottawa and the provinces involved. Then, we demanded that, in exchange for an end to the railway blockades, the federal government appoint an independent mediator whose mandate would be to initiate a discussion with the Wet'suwet'en on territorial issues.

In addition, we requested an emergency debate so that the House could debate solutions to be adopted. Through our leader, in a speech to the House, we also proposed that the Coastal GasLink project be temporarily suspended in exchange for lifting the barricades.

For all of these reasons, I believe the committee should support my motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you very much.

Madame Bérubé, would you please place your motion on the floor now.

I appreciate your preamble but for the process, please read out your motion.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I propose:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study on the current Indigenous crisis in Quebec and Canada; that it invite the key stakeholders at the centre of this crisis: the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs, the ministers concerned and experts on Indigenous affairs; and that it report back to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this.

In my riding in northern Alberta, the railway is a key part of the economy: forestry, fracking and farming is what we do, and all those products go out on the railway.

I'm happy to support this motion.

I look forward to having many people speak to us on this.

I propose the following amendment:

That the motion be amended by replacing the words “that it invite the key stakeholders at the centre of this crisis: the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs” with the following: "In the spirit of reconciliation and to ensure all indigenous voices are heard, the committee should hear from the affected Indigenous Chiefs, Indigenous local leaders, including Coast Gaslink, so that they can provide a more fulsome exploration of this issue".

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I take it now I'm speaking to the amendment.

I was going to propose another amendment, which I'll do after this amendment.

Is that procedure?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I feel this amendment is more inclusive. We'd like to hear from more people than just the hereditary chiefs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I want to speak to the amendment.

Thank you, Mr. Viersen, for that.

I've spoken with many of the leaders locally in the Wet'suwet'en. It's just next to my riding to the west. I was able to meet with some of them about three weeks ago now to talk about their specific support for the project. That was for the group I spoke to, and it seems like it's overwhelmingly that way.

What Mr. Viersen has proposed I think is imperative, which is that there be not just one voice at these meetings, but really that all voices be included, and that we hear a good conversation about the pros and cons for the particular situation.

I support my colleague's amendment and look forward to others supporting it as well.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I'd like to call the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

No. I'm sorry. We can't move to that unless debate is concluded.

Are there any further voices on this discussion?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We're open to this conversation on the subject. We demonstrated that through our emergency motion, which we were glad to see everybody supporting.

We don't believe the hereditary chiefs should be coming to this committee. It's up to the Prime Minister to meet with the hereditary chiefs. It's not up to this committee to make up for his shortfall or compensate for the Prime Minister's lack of leadership. We won't be supporting this amendment. We want the Wet’suwet’en to do their own business in their territory. We support that, and we don't want to derail that process that's taking place.

We will be proposing another amendment to this motion, but in the spirit of supporting the broader context of this motion. I'll speak to that after the vote on this amendment.

(Amendment negatived)

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

To your amendment now, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In supporting the Bloc motion, we support all of the text in the motion, but we'd like to strike out “the key stakeholders at the centre of this crisis” and “the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs” and leave it the same, outside of striking that out.

Again, I've outlined through the previous amendment my concerns and note that we support the motion as it stands, except for striking out, again, the words “the key stakeholders at the centre of this crisis: the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Could you please read the amendment in full?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The motion would read:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study on the current Indigenous crisis in Quebec and Canada; that it invite the ministers concerned and experts on Indigenous affairs; and that it report back to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

While I'm happy to discuss any amendments, I think this was what we were talking about in our amendment. I agree with my friend from the NDP that there has been a lack of leadership by the Prime Minister and that the government is failing at the situation. We now have people who are trying to derail trains in this country, causing a safety risk to many involved. I think if the government clearly is not going to do its job, maybe we should hear from those involved. That's why our motion had it very broad, so that we can call in these witnesses and hear from them directly. The Bloc Québécois did express willingness to go into closed sessions where needed, to not take away from any ongoing negotiations but to give us a better understanding of what's going on. We could therefore perhaps offer suggestions to the government, because right now right what's happening, what we're dealing with, is unacceptable.

Now, as to the NDP motion and what we're seeing here, the ministers are coming in to visit the committee in a couple of weeks anyway. Really, we know what the company line is. We're not getting any new information. We're not learning anything new by bringing in the minister or some people within the department. If we're actually going to get to the bottom of things, we should hear from the people on the ground, the people involved in the situation, before this situation gets worse around the country. We have thousands of Canadians out of work. We have tens of millions of dollars in economic activity grinding to a halt. We have farmers with product that they need to move. We have exporters waiting to move their products and their goods. We are coming to a point where this is spiralling out of control.

Again, if the government isn't going to do this—that's why our motion was so important—then maybe the committee can actually do something.

Mr. Johns, maybe you could reply to this. To me, this motion really has no teeth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Battiste, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I would very much support Mr. Johns' amendment on this.

One thing is that it still says here “experts on Indigenous affairs”. We could potentially call whoever our side believes they should be. I'm just concerned, from my 10 years of experience in working with hereditarian systems, that if they are called upon by a committee, that if we name them in a committee and call them to a committee, they'll feel like it's a court that they're being called to. So I would very much make it optional. We could ask them if they want to be a part of this. I also think we have indigenous academics who would be very well suited to be able to discuss this thoroughly and understand the grasp of what this committee is trying to do—not in a confrontational way, as if they're being subpoenaed by a committee. I would not want to add fuel to the fire by saying to the hereditary chiefs, and naming them in this motion, something like, “We're calling you to appear in front of a committee”, which I feel they would take as a threat and something for which they're being subpoenaed.

I'm very much in favour of Gord Johns' motion but would just strike that. All parties have the option to recommend witnesses. I think that's something you could do at that point rather than specifically name them. They would feel like they were being subpoenaed and called to testify. We want to get to the bottom of this, but we really don't want to be in a position where we're making things worse and making it feel like Canada has just subpoenaed these chiefs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

First off, I'd like to thank Madam Bérubé for bringing forward her original motion. I'd also like to thank Gord Johns for his amendment, which we truly appreciate and will support. I think it's important that there is a peaceful and lasting solution to the current situation. Recognizing the limited role of committee in this, what we don't want to do is inflame or derail the ongoing engagements that are currently taking place. The Wet'suwet'en people need to come together and resolve their differences of opinion. It's not up to this committee or our Parliament or our government to impose any type of limitations on that. In that tone, bringing the hereditary chiefs back to Ottawa would essentially derail the work they're currently undertaking.

My understanding is that Minister Bennett is right now in British Columbia. Along with her counterpart in the province, she will be meeting with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs in the coming hours, if not days. We are very confident that the engagement will be productive.

Therefore, I'd like to ask the committee to support the motion as amended by Mr. Johns. I look forward to having the ministers as well as experts come and present to this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Zimmer.