Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you for the very interesting testimony today. Often we have three panels of witnesses but I think we're getting a much more in-depth opportunity to have a conversation with you today, so I really appreciate it.

Certainly, there are a few things that you said that, of course, are stunning: The price of the English muffins just took me aback a little bit, and the fact that the Liquor Control Board prices are the same.... You said something about the Yukon. Have you done any sort of thinking in terms of a population base? Why do you think the Yukon was more similar in its prices? That would be my first question.

I've been around long enough that I saw the food stamp program that I think was deemed to not work, and we now have nutrition north with many gaps and flaws. I'd like to understand where your conversations have been going with the government in terms of what needs to be done to.... I don't think we'll ever get to perfection, but to do better anyway.

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

Right now we're really looking to see if there's any way we could try to make programs more effective, so we're doing a lot of exploring right now. I think we need to have more people on the first nations' side to help look more into these issues as well.

We've been having conversations with nutrition north for quite some time. I've had a couple of face-to-face meetings as well, just to let them know these are some of the problems that we're facing in NAN territory. I'm liking where those conversations are going. I'm not sure what it takes for the government side to give approval. That's where I try to ask people, “Okay, so if we're working towards this common solution, what can I do to help move things along?”

That's why I said earlier that we'll be looking for political support, and some finances. Once we start looking at trying to make changes to these programs that are having a minimal impact, then we are going to need everybody to start saying, “Okay, here are some solutions we came up with. Let's do it. Let's put it into practice.”

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

When you talk about the conversations, are these formal, regularly scheduled meetings? You talked about needing more indigenous people as part of the conversation.

Can you talk a bit further on that piece?

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

Yes, we have a staff member of NAN who's been engaging with nutrition north and we're trying to get more people in NAN territory to talk about it more, but like I said, we need more resources. We have just one staff person, and that's all we have on the NAN side. We're really trying to capture, as best as we can, what the issues are and to look at solutions so that we can pass that on to nutrition north as well. If we could, I'd like to start having more open forums like this, even with our leadership, so that we could start talking about what it is that they would like to see.

I mentioned a little bit about what the communities have been saying so far, but I think we need to start really engaging with the communities more. As I said, we just need more resources for that as well.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Nutrition north has been probably—what?—eight years now in operation, maybe a little bit more. I might be dating myself.

Would you say there has just been some minor tinkering in spite of concerns? How would you describe any changes that have been made since concerns were identified?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Answer just briefly, please, Deputy Grand Chief.

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

Yes, I do see that there are some changes coming or that have happened in the past. They may increase the subsidy for, say, flour a little more, but then, getting back to the accountability, what's to stop a company from raising the price even more so to offset the subsidy so that they don't lose any profits and whatnot?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks so much for that.

We have one more questioner for five minutes. Jaime Battiste is next, and then we will suspend for the next part of our meeting.

Mr. Battiste, please go ahead.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Chief Smallboy.

In my conversations with some of the people and the friends I've have had over the years at NAN, one of the things they've talked about is the importance of a harvesters support grant and traditional food and traditional hunting and fishing.

I know that the hunting and fishing aren't just about food. This is about culture. It's about the transition of knowledge.

Can you tell me what are the typical foods they are hunting and fishing up there? Also, are they within the means of conservation? If we created more funds for more hunting and fishing, do you think the stocks and conservation in that area could handle it ?

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

Yes, for sure. In our territory, we have moose and caribou. Honestly, I've had both, and I prefer caribou. I find it's delicious. Also, there's a lot of fishing that goes on.

When I was working as a staff person for NAN, we had a men's healing program. We worked the programs so that we did a lot of the work out on the land. We went ice fishing in one community with some participants, and we had a facilitator there who talked about the mental health part of it. We found that to be very effective. When we were getting our evaluations back, they were going up.

Every time we had an event in the community, we would go out on the land. We would go camping and sit by fires. We would go out on the lake or that kind of thing. At the same time, we were addressing the mental health issues and looking at maybe some of the traumas that some of the people had experienced.

We created a safe environment for our people. We had this program and we found it to be very effective. One time when we went ice fishing we caught some fish, and when we got back to the community, the participants said, “We have to give this to the elders.” So that's what we did. That's why I said that. This practice is still being done today. I saw it back when I was a staff person at NAN, which I thought was very lovely.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I think that's one of the indigenous values that we all have coast to coast. If we have more, we give to the elders first.

I'm interested in your solution around the co-ops. I'm hearing that in the Northern store there may not be as much accountability and transparency to the communities in terms of the prices. Can you tell me how a community-owned co-op might help resolve that?

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

I think I can expand a bit more on that example I was giving earlier. If the community had a co-op, say, and if they modelled it in a way such that the profits went back to savings, it would be the customers who were saving money rather than the store receiving profits. I think that kind of system would work. Really, if the prices were to come down, that would create competition in the community, and that would cause other companies in the community to also lower their prices in order to be competitive. Otherwise, they're going to go out of business.

I think competition in the communities is good. Like I said, we just need to figure out ways—it always comes back to funding—we can get the communities more involved and have some kind of funding available to look at the ways we could start up these co-ops in our community.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Has there been any outreach to some of the bigger chains that might be able to help facilitate that, the Loblaws of the world, the co-ops? I'm just trying to figure out whether any work has been done by NAN to further that, work that our government could take a look at.

[Deputy Grand Chief Jason Smallboy]

That's something we would like to do. As I said, we're in the first phase right now and trying to get some resources so we can actually put people to work doing outreach to these different companies that may want to do business in the NAN territory.

When I've gone to meetings in southern Ontario, I had some of my chiefs tell me, yes, we are looking for other partners when it comes to food. What I'll do, if somebody comes up to me and they're looking for a partner, is I'll just pass that information on to the community. I find a lot of the time what we need to do is to let these companies know what it's like actually doing business in the north because we—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Chief, we'll have to leave it at that. We're past our time.

I want to say that, before the pandemic, at this meeting typically we would all rise from our seats and you would be sitting at the end of the table, and we'd be coming up personally to congratulate you and thank you. I think I can do that on behalf of our committee.

This is a very useful, valuable opportunity that we've had. As Ms. McLeod said, because you were the only person available today we were able to get more detail, but I have a feeling there is much more detail to come yet so I don't think our conversations are over. Once again, thank you so much.

We will now suspend for just a few minutes. I'll remind members and staff that they must leave the Zoom meeting and join the in camera webinar before we continue. That will require another set of numbers to punch in, so thank you for that.

This meeting is temporarily suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]