Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, will the framework and principles established over two and a half decades of jurisprudence on section 35 rights be thrown out? If not, will you make this clear in the legislation?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Yes. I think even in Minister Lametti's remarks, it's very clear that there is nothing in this bill that will detract from section 35 rights. Section 35 rights are the Constitution of this country, and we will go forward, but I think there is a view that there will be various ways of enhancing the rights going forward. Nothing in this bill would take away the rights that exist in section 35.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, the First Nations LNG Alliance, the Indigenous Resource Network and the Indian Resource Council have stated:

The uncertainty in the legislation makes it likely that it will be used as a legal strategy to delay and stymie resource development projects by groups that oppose extractive and other resource projects under any circumstances, even those where Indigenous nations are overwhelmingly in favour.

They went on to say:

We want to make sure C-15 protects Indigenous rights, as self-determining nations, to make decisions about our own resources.

Right now I don't think it's clear what changes on the day Bill C-15 passes, but we know there is a range of views and expectations on this legislation, including among indigenous groups. Some are saying it lacks clarity and that it will negatively impact the rights and ability of indigenous groups to form business partnerships and pursue economic independence.

Minister, again, concerning the definition of free, prior and informed consent in Bill C-15, are you concerned that by not providing a definition, this could leave it up to interpretation in the courts and ultimately delay the process of reconciliation, including the Bill C-15 legislation or what comes next after it?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

It's been very clear that this free, prior and informed consent must not be interpreted as a veto. In some ways it's easier to define what it's not than to insist, like in Bill C-69, that indigenous people are at the table at the first idea of a project. What that means is it's an ideal opportunity to form those partnerships for indigenous people to have the benefit of the kinds of economic opportunities that would come out of building a project together, or in the seizing of those kinds of opportunities.

I think it's the opposite, that without this understanding that indigenous people will be there at the table, unfortunately, some projects went forward without talking to indigenous people, and they ended up in court for a very long time, or with blockades, or those kinds of things.

This gives you the clarity to say “nothing about us without us”.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I agree.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Then we will find an opportunity for the partnership. There are so many partnerships, whether it's the James Bay Cree.... There are just so many examples of how this works well for indigenous communities.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'm sorry, Minister. I don't mean to cut you off. I'm short on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry. We're done, Jamie. We're at six and a half minutes.

We'll go to Mr. Battiste for six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to start off by thanking Minister Bennett for her work on Bill C-15 and her tremendous work in terms of working with a number of organizations to get their support on Bill C-15.

I was really pleased to hear about the 33 bilateral sessions that were done with the Assembly of First Nations, the Métis National Council and Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami to help co-develop this bill. This is on top of the 27 years at the United Nations; the UN working group was the first working group to have non-state actors at the same table during the drafting stages, where thousands of indigenous voices contributed to what we have within UNDRIP.

Also, I'm really pleased to see that within the budget there's $31.5 million allocated over two years to ensuring co-development of an action plan on UNDRIP. To me, it really seems that the work on reconciliation with Bill C-15 is just getting started.

I wanted to speak a bit about some of the fears that are out there that some people addressed through section 35 about the possible impact of aboriginal and treaty rights. I believe there's a strong derogation clause, but I'm wondering if you could take some time to speak to section 35 rights and how as a government we're ensuring that we protect these aboriginal and treaty rights within our government and within Bill C-15.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you so much. Thank you for reminding us of the decades of work that have gone into this. This week at the UN permanent forum, for us to be able to thank Wilton Littlechild for all his work.... But there are so many other Canadians and indigenous representatives from Canada, like your family, Jaime. You've lived this your whole live. I don't think we could have a stronger advocate. Thank you for all you do.

Also, in talking about the kind of engagement, I just want to say that we want meaningful engagement, and that means that the excellent Bill C-262 that Romeo Saganash brought forward was evergreened—because the declaration is not—to include two-spirited peoples and to make sure that the definition of the diversity within indigenous communities is not only in the preamble but also in the body of the bill.

This is an exciting time and it helps that the reference to the UN declaration is now in eight of our bills in Canada, including Bill C-91 and Bill C-92. The intent and the commitments in the UN declaration are now part of Canadian law. This will serve to help people understand better what section 35 rights mean, and that indigenous rights and treaty rights are not debatable. They exist, and they will continue to flourish with the understanding of all Canadians.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

We heard from MNC's president, David Chartrand, who said that Bill C-15 is, as he called it, a “blueprint for clarity”. I know that Assembly of First Nations National Chief Perry Bellegarde has talked about the need to see this get to royal assent. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the bilateral sessions and how our government worked with the constitutional voices in Canada to ensure that we were hearing from them as well.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Absolutely. I think the kind of legal team you saw last week, with [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Daniel Quan-Watson, Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

Chair, I could maybe offer a bit of completion of that.

We've had over 70 different meetings and a number of experts from across the country engaged on multiple fronts, including, as the minister noted, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond and many others. It includes conferences and sessions that we've run. One of the more interesting ones was with a large number of indigenous law students from across the country.

Expertise, I think, is defined in many ways. There are those who have spent many years and a long time in the books, but there are those whose lives have been changed by their passion to change this for future generations. They have been involved too.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

Hopefully, we can get the minister back for the next line of questioning.

That's all for me, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks. I'm sure we'll be able to solve the technical issue.

Mrs. Gill, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

So I will ask my questions anyway, even if Minister Bennett is not back with us.

First of all, I must thank her for being here. I also want to emphasize that I would like Minister Lametti to have taken part in our meeting.

As a Bloc Québécois MP, I would like her, as a lawmaker, to explain her intention as to the presumed or real effects of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights Indigenous Peoples on the jurisdictions of Quebec and the provinces.

I would ask Minister Bennett if she can reassure us. In fact, since the beginning of the study, a lot of myths and assumptions, which may or may not be accurate, have been spread as to the consequences of passing this bill.

I would like to hear what she has to say about passing this bill. I would also like her to reassure us that it will not mean federal government interference into the jurisdictions of Quebec and the provinces.

[Daniel Quan-Watson]

Given that the Minister has only just joined us again, she may not have heard the question, Mr. Chair, I will start the answer and the Minister will perhaps pick up on the question as I begin to answer it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Yes. Please go ahead.

[Daniel Quan-Watson]

This is of course federal legislation that deals with the responsibilities of the federal government. If the declaration has any impact on the provinces and territories, it is independent of the federal government's responsibilities.

Perhaps Ms. Sargent, my colleague from the Department of Justice, may have something to add. But the act deals with the responsibilities and the activities of the federal government

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I wonder whether Madam Minister would have preferred to answer that question. Although your answer was very clear, Mr. Quan-Watson, I would not like to deprive her of that pleasure, if she wishes.

Whatever the case, some other fears have occurred to me, and I would like you to clarify some points, Madam Minister.

Earlier, you brought up the distinction between free, prior and informed consent and the right of veto. That really is an idea that we hear regularly. Could you explain the exact distinction between the right of veto and free, prior and informed consent?

In addition, could you tell us more about section 35 of the Constitution as it relates to the declaration? The two are often linked. Some people wonder why we are adopting it because we already have section 35 and there is really no difference between the two. Others don't want to adopt it because there is a difference.

So we hear that there is a difference and that there is not, at the same time.

Can you clarify the matter, please?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

As Mr. Quan-Watson said, Bill C-15applies only to federal legislation. For example, British Columbia establishes its own laws and can adopt the declaration. It's very important for all provinces and territories to fully understand that need.

Section 35 of the Constitution, however, applies to our country in its entirety.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Minister, concerns have also been raised about resource sharing. We talked about it indirectly when my colleagues were asking questions.

Will the sharing of resources have a negative or a positive impact on the jurisdictions of the provinces and of Quebec?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

I think the example of the James Bay Cree perfectly illustrates the nature of a real partnership. It is possible for those Indigenous Indigenous communities to be at the table from the first stages of a potential project and to maintain a true relationship with the industries and companies proposing the projects.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

So the distribution of resources is also within the jurisdiction of the governments of Quebec and the provinces.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Yes, it's in the Constitution. The lands are really in provincial jurisdiction, but I feel that it is possible to share the natural resources. I am thinking of the Indigenous economy of the future and about clear justice for Indigenous peoples.