Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

What you're saying is that they're able to act on most of the band laws in provincial court.

[Brooks Arcand-Paul]

Yes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

That's extremely interesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You're just about there, Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

All right. I will leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you.

Mr. van Koeverden, you have five minutes.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks so much to all of the witnesses today. I know that everybody has already said this, but it's been extraordinarily insightful and helpful today, so we appreciate your testimony.

My name is Adam, and I'm joining you today from the traditional territory of the Haudenosaunee, the Huron-Wendat, the Attawandaron, the Anishinabe and, most recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

I just want to reiterate how helpful and insightful your testimonies and insights have been today.

In looking through budget 2021, I see that there's an extraordinary amount of money being invested over the coming five years in first nations policing. I would love some reflections from you, as experts and people in this field, on how this $861 million over five years, beginning this year, including $145 million per year ongoing, will respond to and contribute to supporting culturally responsive policing and community safety services. I hear loud and clear that funding is one part, that getting out of the way is important, and that providing space for deeper self-governing law-making and legislation are all very important.

I would love to hear from anybody.

I see, Mr. Yang, that your hand's up already, so perhaps you'd like to go first, and Mr. Browne can follow.

[Derek Yang]

Thank you, Mr. Chair; and thank you to the member for that question. I think one of the key phrases that you have used is that it's funding for policing services.

There's traditionally a direct link. When indigenous communities or even the general public mention law enforcement, a lot of policy-makers and lawmakers think directly into policing. That's not necessarily the case for indigenous communities.

For example, there are communities that do not want a policing service. They do not want a self-administered policing service at all under the first nations policing program. What some of them would like is better investment into infrastructure and appointment of enforcement officers, whether it be peacekeepers or community safety officers or whatever we want to call them. The reason for that is that some of these communities have good service or a good relationship with the police of jurisdiction, and with that, a lot of the times the police jurisdictions simply do not have the resources to provide adequate service for the communities or be able to enforce the laws, such as the treaty laws or the bylaws under the Indian Act or the laws under the First Nations Land Management Act.

What we would like to see is a divestment, a move away from funding strictly guided towards policing and a broader approach to community safety or public safety and enforcement on indigenous territories. This is by no means advocating a decrease in funding for our self-administered policing partners, when in truth there are many who are in desperate need of a funding infusion. However, we do also need to see funding as well for—for lack of a better term—a tiered law enforcement program in which officers are not police but still deal with administrative regulatory enforcement and quasi-criminal enforcement in support of the police of jurisdiction.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Yang.

Before I ask for further reflections, I want to highlight that there is also $103 million over five years for a new “pathways to safe indigenous communities” initiative, which I think is a more holistic community-based safety and wellness model that you're talking about. As well, on the side of infrastructure that you mentioned, there's $108 million over five years to repair, renovate and replace policing facilities in first nations.

I think the budget is comprehensive, but I would love to hear from Mr. Browne, and Ms. Lazore as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have just about a minute. Go ahead.

[Murray Browne]

Thank you very much. I'll keep this brief.

We were very pleased to see the funding. It's a major commitment. It shows a commitment to reconciliation. It's much needed. We just hope that first nations will co-develop it in how it's spent.

Just to follow up on Mr. Yang's comments, Tla'amin is not seeking its own policing board, which is too expensive to set up and administer, but they do want the authority and funding to create solutions.

I just want to mention liability protection. If we only apply funding, first nations are at high risk of liability for operating policing and enforcement without liability protection. The RCMP recently charged an individual on a reserve for trying to evict a trespasser. They charged the first nation representative, not the trespasser, for nuisance, because they thought the first nation rep didn't have the authority.

I think of examples like the First Nations Land Management Act, in which there's a federal framework and legislation that sets out the legal authority and liability protection for the first nations, and then sets the first nation up for success in a legal framework with funding. We also have similar examples on child and family issues. I just want to mention that.

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks. We're at time there, so perhaps Ms. Lazore can pick that up later.

Right now we'll go to Madame Bérubé for two and half minutes, please.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Arcand-Paul, who is a lawyer.

Your not-for-profit association is geared towards first nations, Inuit and Métis lawyers. What are some of your major issues in terms of your work in assisting first nations with legislation and law enforcement?

[Brooks Arcand-Paul]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Bérubé.

If I may, I'll respond in English.

What we never purport to do is to speak for nations. Nations have their own inherent right and sovereignty, which we try to protect. When we're looking at being able to provide nations with their ability to make these decisions, we always go back to the community. It has been brought up many times before this committee to listen to the grassroots. Chief Bellerose raised it. The power comes from the people. It's not a hierarchy that is similar to what we have with this House of Commons. We have to recognize that and respect it.

When we're looking at nations that want to pass laws, we have to go back to the groundwork. We have to go back to the grassroots folks to see what kinds of laws they want implemented. It's giving them the empowerment and allowing the nations to make that determination themselves, not by committee and not by making legislation to do so.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do you have any recommendations to help us?

[Brooks Arcand-Paul]

Listen to your first nation counterparts. Listen to the people on the ground. Open up those dialogues. Really, get out of the business of Indian management. We can do it. We have the ability to do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

That's all.

That's about it for time.

Ms. Blaney, you have two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Yang and Mr. Browne, could you talk about what you believe the federal government needs to do to amend legislation, policies or negotiating mandates? Are there other solutions that we could recommend in this report?

[Murray Browne]

Thank you to the honourable member and to the whole committee. These are very helpful and important discussions.

I'll mention briefly the treaty side.

We would really hope for government negotiators to be mandated to open up the space. Rather than forcing the imposition of federal and provincial laws on first nations, perhaps we could start negotiating treaties whereby we recognize the three founding jurisdictions and give federal negotiators the power to say that you don't actually have to follow our laws; let's meet the basic standards and you can have your own laws with your own authority.

That's on the treaty side. Maybe Mr. Yang wants to follow up on the cross-delegation, because we need to figure out a way to do that.

[Derek Yang]

Thank you.

There are federal enactments currently regarding enforcement that permit cross-delegation or special appointments, even under the RCMP Act, for officers to work in a different capacity. Perhaps that is something the government can explore and provide guidance to the ministries on when it comes to exercising those authorities so that they are more holistic.

The RCMP is a great example of how they used to appoint special constables in indigenous and Inuit communities to help them in the enforcement of the laws. It's not a stretch of the imagination that those cross-delegation appointments now could help strengthen community safety and enforcement in the indigenous communities, with partnership and arm's-length oversight at times from the RCMP.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I heard what Mr. Browne said about meeting the basic standards and then letting the laws be created. I think that point is so important.

We heard from the RCMP in the last testimony that they have the ability to enforce the peace but often let the nations themselves deal with the process. Could you talk about what that does in the community and the legal concerns that you have?

[Murray Browne]

That's a really, really important question. Going back to the drug dealer eviction I mentioned, the RCMP wouldn't come at first. They're good folks, but I think they're confused about what their mandate is and whether first nation laws are just municipal bylaws or real laws. We keep trying to educate them. It would help if they received direction that they're real laws and that they should help enforce them. There's no reason that first nations should be having to evict drug dealers.

We did it. We took steps to protect. We said that if you won't come, we'll call 911 when we get there, and hopefully you'll show up. We shouldn't have to do that.

I'll pass it over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We're at time right there.

[Murray Browne]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

It's a great topic. Perhaps it will come up again, though, because Mr. Melillo has his five minutes.