Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for joining us today and for being part of this great discussion.

I'd like to come back to Mr. Arcand-Paul. If anyone else wants to jump in on this question, please do. Bear with me as I try to figure out the best way to ask it.

We've been hearing, and it's been touched on a bit today, that it's not just a lack of resources for enforcement, necessarily. There are a lot of barriers to accessing appropriate resources for many indigenous peoples throughout the process or throughout the entire justice system as a whole, if I can frame it that way.

Mr. Arcand-Paul, I'm wondering if you want to comment. Do you agree with that interpretation? Do you have any comments or any solutions to that?

Then I'd open it up to comments from anybody else.

[Brooks Arcand-Paul]

I'm sorry. To reframe the question, is it whether first nations or indigenous groups have difficulties accessing the justice system generally for lack of funding?

Yes, that's a theme that has been reiterated many times at this committee today. I'm sure that you hear it at the other meetings on this topic. It is a problem. It is a problem for first nations and it's a problem for other indigenous groups in Canada to be able to exercise their inherent sovereignty.

The other issue is recognizing the legalities of it and recognizing their inherent jurisdiction. If you go to any community, you will know that they understand where they stand. Particularly the treaty nations and the ones on the Prairies have never given up that ability to exercise their jurisdiction.

How can you exercise your jurisdiction if you don't have the funds to do so? We see that Akwesasne and Kahnawake have the ability to establish courts and establish legal mechanisms internally so that they don't have to turn to courts in the provinces or at the federal level. Funding is a very important aspect, and we're not going to achieve that ability to exercise our inherent jurisdiction if dollars are not attached.

I want to make a comment for MP van Koeverden. Yes, those monies are a good start, but at this point, we need more. That's over five years. That's not enough money to be able to establish legal systems and establish inherent jurisdiction.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thanks for those comments.

I'll look to see if anyone else wanted to jump in on that before I move on.

Okay. Do I have another couple of minutes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have two minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go to you, Chief Bellerose. You've touched a couple of times on the gap between the community and the law enforcement. I'm wondering if you could talk more about that as well.

Also, I understand from some of the reading and from some of the comments you've made today that your nation really seems to prioritize a lot of restorative justice and alternative crime prevention responses, if I'm not mistaken, and I'm wondering if you can touch on that as well.

[Chief Reginald Bellerose]

Yes. Thank you.

Just to frame this up a little bit, my mom's grandfather was chief in Muskowekwan from 1910 to 1952. Back then, under the Indian agent, our people needed passes to leave the reserve. The laws of Canada stopped our way to worship. It's called a rain dance. Ours was the big lodge. People went to jail if they left the reserve without a pass, if they went to worship without permission. Our people stood up to that. Later on, I had an uncle who was chief for 20 years in the next reserve. It was all about liquor violations. If our people made their own mash or their own wine and the Indian agent came and found out, they went to jail.

You know, in 2021, MP—thanks for the question—we're still dealing with those past laws, those violations against who we are as first peoples of this land. The corrective way is that we need to control the process. We are native people. We're not going to change. We're reviving our language. We're reviving our culture, and our young people are becoming empowered. Our young people are encouraged to stay away from drugs and alcohol. Our young people are encouraged to stay in school. It's not all gloomy. There is a part of our reality that is gloomy, that is somewhat of a nightmare, but it's with our young people that the hope is.

As MPs, I hope you'll continue to support and listen. I met a lawyer here from Alexander, a very intelligent guy. I hope you can listen to individuals like that. As elected leaders, we get heck for everything. If they wake up on the wrong side of the bed, it's the chief's fault, right?

We don't have time, but anyway, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you.

By the way, Chief, I had relatives in the same predicament as some of your friends, but that's another story.

Before I go to Marcus Powlowski, I think it's really important that we extend the meeting. I'm going to ask for a motion to allow the subsequent round of questioning to occur, which will take place past the one o'clock deadline.

Do I have a motion to extend?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I'll make that motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks, Mr. Battiste.

(Motion agreed to)

Mr. Powlowski, you have five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I got up on the right side of the bed, I'll have you know, this morning.

My question is to all of you. I think there's been pretty well unanimous interest and desire to have more power to develop and enforce your own laws on your own territories. We certainly heard that.

Now, the devil's always in the details. To what extent? There are obviously very many different layers of societal rules. What about the big crimes? I mean things like murder, sexual assaults, drug offences. Do you want to also be making and enforcing laws related to these and if necessary prosecuting them and if necessary even incarcerating people?

I'd like to hear an answer from all of you, if possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Who wants to start?

Go ahead, Mr. Browne.

[Murray Browne]

Thank you for the excellent question.

Tla'amin Nation and many other nations I work with have not expressed interest in taking over criminal prosecutions, but we do separate land jurisdiction from criminal action. The nations I work with are willing to support and work with the RCMP under the Criminal Code and with Canadian courts on serious offences. Sentencing, community justice, is another matter.

We have to have authority over lands. If there's a drug dealer or a violent sexual offender living in the middle of the community, yes, they need to be dealt with under the Criminal Code, but the nation has to have land jurisdiction to restrain or move that person out.

I'll say that. Thanks for the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Chief Lazore, did you want to weigh in on this?

[Chief Connie Lazore]

Yes, I do. As mentioned earlier, we have our own court. We have our community laws and bylaws there, and we've also heard common assault cases, B and E, vagrants, and cruelty to animals. We're not looking to take everything right away because, as you know, none of it is funded. We have a police force that does have holding cells, but that's just a holding cell. That type of Criminal Code offence will still belong with Canada. Canada has those laws for that. We're not looking to take that on, but we are looking to govern ourselves and to have our community laws. We don't want to step on other people's toes, so we'd appreciate if they'd get off ours.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Go ahead, Mr. Arcand-Paul.

[Brooks Arcand-Paul]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a really good question.

I want to echo Chief Lazore's sentiments. Ultimately, the Criminal Code isn't going anywhere. I think the way Chief Justice Lamer put it was quite great in the Delgamuukw decision:“Let us face it, we are all here to stay.” We're not going anywhere. We have to recognize how we work together to be able to move forward together, like the treaty intended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have two minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Maybe I can ask Chief Lazore about this. She was the only one so far to have mentioned section 107 and justices of the peace appointed under section 107.

My understanding is that in 2004 the Harper government stopped the funding, and you've appointed your own justices of the peace. What do you think about beginning to fund section 107 courts to prosecute bylaw offences under the Indian Act? Are you in favour of that? I'll ask you and then I'll open it to anyone else.

[Chief Connie Lazore]

Thank you, honourable MP, for that question. It is a good question.

The truth is that we're not looking to do anything under the Indian Act. I would prefer that we pull that section right away and that we govern ourselves and our courts, our enforcement, our adjudication—all of it—under us, under Mohawks of Akwesasne.

As mentioned, we're working on that self-government agreement to pull away certain particulars of the Indian Act, and that would be one of them. No, I'm not interested in having our court being an Indian Act court. As the chief mentioned earlier, we get in trouble for everything. That one would really get me in trouble.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Yang, you have your hand up.

[Derek Yang]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will echo what my colleague mentioned earlier. These are the issues that we're facing as treaty nations. Under provisions under the Indian Act as well as the First Nations Land Management Act, we do not have powers to continue or to adopt. We currently don't have the ability to be able to enforce our own laws and have court oversight. To simply re-fund that option would leave a lot of nations and bands out of that option.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you for that.

We're going to our next round. It's not often that we get this far into our rounds of questioning, but we're able to today.

Gary Vidal, you are next, followed by Mr. Battiste, Madame Bérubé, Ms. Blaney and so on.

Gary Vidal, you have five minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Actually, Mr. Chair, I'm going to cede my time to Mr. Schmale so that he can follow up on some of the questions he had in the first round, if that's all right with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Sure.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to pick up where we left off. A lot of the conversation does involve funding. In previous studies, this committee touched on precursors for such things as self-government, financial stability through the potential ability for taxation, revenue generation, and those types of things.

We have heard from witnesses who have mentioned that indigenous policing is—as we heard from testimony here today—rooted in self-determination, greater autonomy, self-governance and that kind of thing.

Again, I will open up the floor, which seems to be a common theme here, and a good one, because we hear from everyone who wants to provide feedback.

I guess there are two parts to this question. First, what consultation, if any, has been done with indigenous communities in the last seven months to move that potential forward? Second, in your opinion, what steps are needed and what more needs to be done in order to implement the legal framework to recognize indigenous policing as an essential service?