Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 25th, 2021

[Chief Doris Bill]

It starts by building those partnerships and really creating space for the program.

For example, our traditional territory spreads throughout the city, and we talked with and sat down with the City of Whitehorse. We created an intergovernmental forum and we meet formally with the City of Whitehorse. We also sit down with the Yukon government. We have those conversations and work out any problems or issues that we have. Because of our successes here in Whitehorse, we have the City of Whitehorse, the larger City of Whitehorse, asking us to extend our program within the city, and I—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We'll have to leave it there, Chief.

[Chief Doris Bill]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry about that.

[Chief Doris Bill]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We have a lot of questions to come, maybe on the same theme.

Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start my questioning with Chief Denny.

Thank you for joining us, and thank you for your testimony. As you mentioned in your testimony, the Unama'ki Tribal Police operated between 1994 and 2000. It was one of the remedies or recommendations from the Donald Marshall Jr. inquiry that looked at racism within the justice system.

I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what you felt were some of the successes or challenges around the tribal police. Also, over the last 20 years, it's been under the RCMP, so I'm wondering if you can tell us, in your view, how you believe the local policing has changed on reserve since the RCMP has taken over. Could you elaborate about what you've experienced in that time?

[Chief Leroy Daniel Denny]

As an employee at the Unama'ki Tribal Police, as a jail guard—I was a young, young man—and also as dispatch, I did witness good things first-hand.

When we used to have the Unama'ki Tribal Police, the majority of the force were Mi'kmaq officers. Before the tribal police started, there were over 10 Mi'kmaq-speaking officers sent to Depot in Regina to train under the RCMP. They came back to Unama'ki, and we policed all five Mi'kmaq communities. It was very underfunded, and they were dealing with a lack of resources. However, the good thing about having our own Mi'kmaq-speaking officers was that they played a large role in community policing.

We indigenized. We decolonized our police at that time, but after years of the lack of funding and covering five bands, they were just exhausted. We exhausted our police officers. We ended up picking up partners with the provincial police at that time. Then, finally, the funding didn't pick up. There was less and less. Then we had to go to this new approach with the RCMP.

Since then, we've never had any new Mi'kmaq officers. That just stopped. Now all the Mi'kmaq-speaking officers who came from Unama'ki and joined with the RCMP are starting to retire. One of them is my brother Walter.

All of them were in the beat, meaning that while they were doing calls and going to the major incidents that happened, the Mi'kmaq officers played a large role, speaking Mi'kmaq and being there and visiting elders. They were doing all these things. They were visiting the elders. They were involved in community events. That doesn't happen anymore. We don't know these officers.

I've been pushing for Mi'kmaq-speaking officers and indigenous officers anywhere in the country. I want indigenous officers in my community. It doesn't matter if they're Mi'kmaq or another indigenous person; they're really hard to find.

Many, many Mi'kmaq youth have been trying to get into policing, and they're just denied and they fail. I wonder why their submissions are not being respected or approved to enter policing when these 10 Mi'kmaq officers, plus two others, were able to enter.

Right now, we're having a lot of issues. Our Mi'kmaq youth are not being accepted in policing. Now most of our Mi'kmaq officers are retired. We're not going to have any more Mi'kmaq-speaking officers, and to me, that's a big issue. We need more indigenous officers, especially those who speak their own language. That's the most crucial and most important thing that we need here if we want to indigenize policing. I really want to return indigenous policing to our communities.

We're the only ones. We know our people. We know exactly how to defuse. We know exactly how our people.... We have anger issues, language issues. Just as a witness, I always witnessed how our indigenous officers defused situations without any violence—without any weapons, tasers, pepper spray or stuff like that—just by using our language. In a way, we'd just understand. We'd know their background. We'd know their families. We were able to already understand the background when we dealt with individuals. That's really important.

We need our own indigenous officers to be respected and helped, and we need to find many ways to get them through this program. That's what we need.

Right now, the RCMP is so colonized. That's why our Mi'kmaq officers can't get in there. It's because we don't meet their requirements. Our indigenous ideology should be respected. I think that's the approach we need to take.

Thank you.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Chief, I think I only have time for one short question.

You put in significant measures to protect your community during the first phase of COVID. What was the experience like with the RCMP, in terms of helping you enforce some of the laws that you created to keep your community safe from COVID in the first wave? Can you give us a sense of what the RCMP told you?

[Chief Leroy Daniel Denny]

We had our own lockdown. The RCMP didn't want to get involved. They kept saying we were violating rights because we had a curfew and we locked our community down because there were a lot of cases in the town area. We did a lockdown using our health and safety bylaw. The RCMP didn't work with us.

Our poor security guards were policing it, and they were getting stressed out. They've been after.... They were going after them, and the police didn't do anything. They wouldn't do very similar.... As the chief mentioned here earlier, they didn't really play a role. They said they couldn't use these bylaws because it was violating the rights of people to enter. They didn't want to touch it.

I kept asking with emails to the top officer and even the minister, saying we need the RCMP to work with our people, with our security guards, to keep people safe, saying this is a deadly pandemic happening in our community and we're trying to protect our people and you're not helping.

Once this COVID hits our community, because of the high number of health issues we have in our community, it's going to affect many of our community members, like what's happened to many other first nations across the country where COVID hit. There were a lot of deaths. That's one of the main reasons I'm really upset to this day about how the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We'd better leave it there. That's seven minutes.

We'll go to Madam Bérubé, please.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am on the Cree and Anishinabe territory of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou in Quebec.

My question is for Chief Louie of the First Nations Lands Advisory Board.

In your brief you wrote that in terms of policing, many first nations communities with land codes have been turned away by police when they've asked for help.

Could you provide the committee with concrete examples of this type of situation and explain in more detail the consequences of these refusals for first nations communities?

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you very much, honourable committee member.

We did have these examples. I guess the most prevalent is Chief Heidi Cook. She has a community with a land code, and I believe you heard some of her testimony. That was a prime example that really started the spark about the RCMP not acknowledging our laws. That was a serious matter.

We also have the K'ómoks situation. It took place a few years ago. The community had an unwanted trespasser on its land. It had its laws in place and wanted an eviction. It called upon the local RCMP to assist in that eviction. The RCMP refused. The community went to court, and there were difficulties with the prosecution. The end result was that the community had to go to private prosecution for the unwanted trespasser.

Eventually, the unwanted trespasser was dealt with through the prosecution. However, that process was very expensive. Private prosecution cost the community about $178,000. It is something that is far too costly to continue, albeit much of that cost was attributed to the court to understand the meaning of the land code, understand what it's about, and all of the background and history.

In future, the cost of private prosecutions, I think, can be reduced quite significantly, but it's an example of what needs to be done. There has to be education and training in the court system. There has to be an understanding with the RCMP that these are federal laws being passed. The federal laws are equal to the laws of the federal government. They're paramount and they have to be recognized.

These are two very valid experiences we've encountered.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I have another question for you.

What are the advantages for the first nations to have their own police force when it comes to maintaining order or enforcing community regulations?

[Chief Robert Louie]

I think the benefits would be significant, in the sense that we would have a system whereby the community would rely on their own policing system. However, the problem with that, of course, is the cost, and you've heard from the chief, who gave testimony, that the costs there are prohibitive.

In my community, I was the chief for 24-plus years. During my term as chief, we explored setting up our own policing department. We came very close to having it implemented. The biggest problem was the cost of it and how to properly run it. After we examined all of the requirements of setting up that police force, we decided that the cost was just too prohibitive.

Today, if I were faced again with that situation, our own police force would be instituted. We would have set that up. There are all kinds of issues with training, and that's costly. There is the issue of carrying sidearms and having the police and justice system authorities agree that sidearms could be carried. However, in hindsight, with proper funding and the will of the people, we would have set up our own police force. In the long run, I agree that having community members involved in the policing system is a huge benefit. I think people look more towards prevention as opposed to actual punishment and seeing police officers appear.

That said, we do have good relationships here. Most of the relationships depend on how the police forces deal with the communities. Relationship is very important. It's always a struggle. It's always a part of the process to keep up those relationships. With better relationships, you have improved services and better community protection.

In our case, I think that we need to work on a more adjudicated system, not only with the courts but also having peace officers or enforcement officers with the authority and the power to implement what they need to do, so that there is no misunderstanding as to their authorities and their powers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry, members of the committee; I think my Internet disappeared.

We're now past time, and it is time for Rachel Blaney's six minutes.

Rachel, please go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I also had a weird Internet moment there as well, so maybe it was something happening in the system.

My first question is to Mr. Louie.

I really appreciate your testimony. You talked about this as a “crisis in enforcement”. I think that's what you said in your initial statement. One aspect that concerns you is that the colonial Indian Act seems to be what is being promoted as the only thing that works. Of course, that undermines self-determination, aboriginal rights and title and so forth.

You said also that we need answers instead of more questions and that there are some good pilot projects that are happening. I'm wondering if you could tell us anything about good steps forward that we should hear about and that we could add to our recommendations in this report.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you very much, Ms. Blaney, for your question.

We do have some things happening that are positive. I think the positiveness is the willingness by provinces, territorial governments and the federal government to listen and to want to work on some solutions. We've started that situation with MKO in Manitoba. The attorney general and those who are in charge of the various ministries have been active.

We have a pilot project taking place in Saskatchewan with the Muskoday community and Whitecap. They are working now with the Saskatchewan attorney general's office to look at how there can be better enforcement. We are hoping that these discussions will lead to an understanding by the Province of Saskatchewan that it will recognize first nations land code laws and that enforcement is a joint process, and that there needs to be collaboration and support of that.

If we can do that there, we can do it in Manitoba, in Alberta, in British Columbia, right through the country. I think this is where we need to be. The discussions are happening right now. This committee and the recommendations you make are hopefully going to be pressing. The recommendations will say, and hopefully support, that this has to be done now. We cannot afford to wait. The laws that are taking place are being done now. We have laws in force. We are a government. We are recognized as a government. We have the authorities and the powers of government, yet the laws are not being recognized and enforced. We cannot wait for this.

We have matrimonial issues. We have trespass issues. We have pollution, contaminants, and matters of such great importance that they have to be dealt with now. The more that this is understood, the more the collaboration that takes place, and the more direction that this committee can give towards the various provinces—to all the ministries—that this is an important matter, the more quickly we're going to find solutions.

I much appreciate your question and this committee's work. Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

If I could come to you, Chief Cook, what we've heard in previous testimony is that self-determination is so important, but the lack of enforcement is really limiting access to that and has a big impact on leadership having the ability to lead. I think you talked about it so well.

You said that you're in the third wave, and I'm really sorry to hear about the impacts on your community and how stressful that is for leadership and for all the workers there.

You made the choice to not make any laws or have any public health care announcements because there's absolutely no ability to enforce. I'm wondering how that impacts the ability of leadership to do their job. Also, what does it do in the community when there are no consequences for behaviours that are not helpful?

[Chief Heidi Cook]

I think the hardest part is not having consequences. We rely on our experience from the second wave to try to curb behaviours now. We've gone through a lockdown together and experienced an outbreak. We hope that most people will just govern themselves accordingly, I suppose.

It's very difficult to also have demands from people who are asking leadership to lock down and to do things that they know worked. It was just so difficult to manage that I'm not sure we can do those things again. Based on how much we struggled the second time, I'm not sure how many people are willing to put themselves through that, knowing what we know about what is required.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

You also talked about the RCMP not being able to enforce them and then trying to find ways to make the rules fit into RCMP enforcement roles. I'm just wondering about that very strange way of trying to govern.

[Chief Heidi Cook]

Basically we needed help, and we were told that neither the public health orders the band has or the land code laws the band has were enforceable. However, there were provincial public health orders, and simple acts like driving around rather than sitting in the station all day could have helped create the perception that things were being monitored or enforced without the RCMP actually having to enforce them.

We asked for things like that, but they weren't as forthcoming as we felt they could be. It did have an impact on the spread of COVID-19 in the community. It spread a lot more than I think was necessary. If we had—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry to interrupt. We need to get in all our rounds of questions. We're well over on that six minutes.

For the witnesses, we now go to a five-minute round of questions. The first questioner will be Mr. Melillo for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start with Grand Chief Settee.

As I understand, you had an additional comment you wanted to make, but you weren't able to. I just want to give you the opportunity to add that comment, if you'd like to.

[Grand Chief Garrison Settee]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

I just wanted to conclude our discussion with how COVID-19 has brightly illuminated the gaps and barriers and the urgent need to uphold the rule of law. The COVID-19 pandemic also highlighted important opportunities to amend federal, provincial and first nation legislative frameworks to recognize and develop the capacity of first nations. First nation enforcement and justice officials and first nation lawyers need to make, enforce, prosecute and adjudicate first nation bylaws and laws.

That was what my concluding statement would have been.

Thank you.