Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm going to jump in. Could we have just a brief response? We're at the end of the six minutes, but I will give you time for a brief response.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A definite hurdle that we identify in many of our audits in the territories is the lack of information. It's very manual and dispersed, and there is no consolidated repository. That's a typical finding. We have findings like that even in this audit.

You need to at least gather the information. If you want to make a well-informed decision and build capacity, having a housing manager is one of the essential elements needed. It helps ensure that communities can gather the information needed to better inform decision-making.

Hopefully that helps as a quick answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Lemire, who will have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

Once again, your report pinpoints a need that, in my opinion, is absolutely critical in Quebec and Canada. The fundamental issue of housing affects people's dignity. We're hearing, for example, that four families share one housing unit, which I witnessed when I toured some housing.

It's not possible to foster the development of good mental health under those conditions. We can't provide children with the conditions they need to succeed at school without an understanding of all the problems the housing issue creates. There are stories of families who have to look for somewhere to lie down at night. At night, families gather in front of the TV, because they don't have beds. The situation is urgent.

You talked about the statement made by the Assembly of First Nations, according to which $44 billion was needed to improve housing. Since I'm the indigenous relations critic, there's an issue I find particularly troubling, and I want to explore it with you. It's in line with two of your recommendations.

One of those recommendations reads as follows

ISC and CMHC, in collaboration with first nations communities, should identify those communities most in need of capacity funding and ensure they receive the funding.

The second mentions the following:

ISC and CMHC, in collaboration with first nations, should “review the structure and delivery of their housing programs to streamline the application process to simplify and facilitate access to funding”.

In my opinion, this problem is directly linked to the program structure itself and to the accountability requirements applicable to indigenous communities and first nations leaders. In my opinion, this problem is eminently structural. Often, funding must be spread over two years. Consequently, the money goes back into the consolidated revenue fund without ever having been spent, despite the lovely statements made during budget announcements and the government's willingness to show great sensitivity to the indigenous file.

Can we draw a connection between the lack of program adaptability to the realities faced by first nations and the fact that so much funding is going back into the consolidated revenue fund without having been spent, which proves that the money isn't going to where it's needed in those communities?

[Karen Hogan]

The money is being spent. When it isn't, it's because there isn't really a plan to determine the required level of investment.

When we look at where the money is going, we see that it's clearly tied to some extent to capacity. Indeed, that's one of our recommendations. What concerns me is that the department and CMHC only partially agree with our recommendation.

In my opinion, the government should determine which communities have the greatest needs, the ones where the conditions are the worst, and ensure that they get a fair share of the available funding. At present, funding is going to communities putting their hands up and those that have the capacity to respond to requests.

It's a labour-intensive process for small communities. For them, it's not a matter of making a decision, but rather of recognizing their needs, which vary from one community to the next. In some cases, there's no one in charge of housing. Communities need support to determine their needs and submit a funding application. Other communities don't need that kind of support. I'd like the answer to be based on the unique needs of each community.

That said, the programs are extremely complex. For example, CMHC has 13 housing-related funding programs. Each community has to first determine which programs they qualify for and then submit an application for each program. There should be an easier, less labour-intensive way for communities to access funding.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I really like that answer, Ms. Hogan.

I'm particularly interested in the fact that you said you were concerned about fairness. Does this mean that we need to play catch-up? Often, many communities didn't necessarily have access to funding available over the past few decades.

If we want to ensure fairness, should some measures be retroactive to allow communities access to a greater share of the funding? That might compensate for the lack of funding, whether it's because communities didn't use the money or because they didn't obtain funding over the past few decades.

[Karen Hogan]

Our recommendations don't go that far. It's up to the department and CMHC to decide how to manage funds for housing.

I will refer you to exhibit 2.6 of our report, where we talk about small communities with fewer than 100 housing units. We wanted to determine whether, on average, those communities received a fair share of funding.

We noted that communities where 75% or more of housing was determined to be in need of major repairs or replacement received less money on average than communities in better shape.

The departments don't conduct that kind of analysis, but I encourage them to do so to accurately determine the scope of the support each community needs.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Would having programs spread over 5 or 10 years foster the creation of expertise in more disadvantaged communities?

[Karen Hogan]

Obviously, if some communities really don't have the capacity to determine housing needs and produce a plan, they would benefit from a multi-year program. There would be greater support for those communities, and this would also ensure that the funding is available.

However, this depends on political will, and it's not up to me to determine whether a program's duration should be longer or shorter.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's great. Thank you.

Next we'll go to Ms. Idlout.

When you're ready, you'll have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the Auditor General.

I really appreciate your criticism of the lack of commitment from this Liberal government for so many years.

Just to summarize some of what I've heard, 80% of first nations housing need has not been met. The strategy that they developed has not been implemented. The Auditor General has made four reports, and recommendations have not been implemented. The national housing advocate has also made some criticisms about this government's lack of commitment to addressing first nations' housing needs.

We're only talking about first nations, but I'd be a lot more scathing if this included Inuit. I'm glad to hear that the audit is coming up for Nunavut. We haven't heard what the realities are for Métis, and hopefully we'll get some information later about the housing needs for Métis.

I have a specific question for you. I'm not sure if you've read the 2024 budget, but the 2024 budget has an investment of $918 million over five years. Could you explain to us if that will be enough to fill or close the housing gap for first nations?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a question I would absolutely encourage you to ask the departments and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. All I can point to is what the Assembly of First Nations identified as being needed to help meet the housing needs of first nations communities. In 2021, that was pegged at about $44 billion. The federal government agreed with that assessment. They actually asked the Assembly of First Nations to do that.

There was a very recent one. When my audit was ongoing, it was a draft. It has since been finalized, and you can see that the need has almost tripled...in order to meet the current housing needs for first nations communities. I believe it's much higher than what's sitting in the budget, but this is why you need a plan. You can't fund all of these housing needs in one year. It would be impossible to even spend that kind of money in a meaningful and intelligent way. You need a plan to figure out what the gap is—identified now by third parties—and how you fund that type of investment over time. Then it's about how you support communities to actually spend it.

What we saw in our audit was that priority was given to shovel-ready projects, or projects that were quick to turn around, but that isn't the case for all projects. You need to make sure that you've thought about the needs of each community, whether they are small or large.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Having done this recent audit, and remembering the previous audits, it seems that recommendations haven't been implemented, strategies haven't been implemented. Do you think this Liberal government has the capacity to even develop a plan and implement it?

[Karen Hogan]

Even this committee, in 2022, provided a recommendation that a comprehensive investment plan was needed in order to fund, at the time, what was seen as a gap to close for housing needs in first nations communities. I have yet to see that.

The responses to our recommendations now show that there is a timeline set up to develop that plan. I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you whether they'll be able to do that, but I hope that with pressures from first nations communities, parliamentary committees and my office, we will see some progress and a positive trend.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

If they are not listening to first nations communities, they're not listening to the indigenous and northern affairs committee and they're not listening to the Auditor General's recommendations. Who else should be pressuring them to make sure the first nations' housing needs are being met? Everyone is telling them what these tremendous gaps are. Who else can we scream at to make sure they're getting the investments they need?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure I have a better answer than what you've suggested. I think the parties that have the ability to help influence are doing their part. It is now up to the government to develop a plan and to figure out how it will be funded going forward. I just hope that it's done in continuous dialogue with indigenous people so that it's done in a way that meets their needs and their culture.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You have 30 seconds.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay. I'll cede it to my next two and a half minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thanks, Ms. Idlout.

We will then go to our next round, starting with Mr. Schmale.

I found my flash cards. I'll use the yellow card when there's 30 seconds left and the red card when time is up. For those who can see me, keep an eye on them.

Mr. Schmale, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Auditor General, for once again talking about your latest report on housing.

I'd like to focus on some of your comments regarding the slow approach of not only the department itself but also the CMHC in their progress to address this very important issue. You mentioned that the department has been very slow to react to some of the realities on the ground, and you mentioned the words “fundamental shift”. I want you to talk about what you mean, through your work, when you say “fundamental shift”. How do you see this playing out?

[Karen Hogan]

I'll mention two things.

The first is that I find the current policies and practices that both Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation are using predate many of the government's current commitments, whether they be commitments to truth and reconciliation or to following the UN sustainable development goals. The goal of reaching those who are furthest behind and moving them first is a key sustainable development goal, but the current approach doesn't really follow that.

To turn to what I mean by a fundamental shift, it would be in that approach but also in how programs are structured. Right now, if you have an infrastructure need in a first nation community linked to drinking water, there are drinking water programs. If you have a need related to housing, there are some housing programs to apply for. I could pick another need, and there would be another grouping of programs. Communities need to know where they are, how many there are and what each program is targeted at trying to address, and then they need to figure out how to apply for them to access funding. That would mean they also already know the universe of their needs in order to link them to a program. I call that a very siloed approach.

The current approach of passivity is one where every community needs to raise their hand and apply and say they need this funding, and that doesn't really match up with the realities of first nations communities right now that have capacity issues. For example, in this case, there is no housing manager. Very few communities we surveyed have a housing manager. How do you even know what your needs are without that capacity to identify them? The partial disagreement we're seeing with the two entities is that they don't want to change that approach. They believe first nations should identify the approach and their needs, whereas I think a much more proactive approach is needed.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That's the thing I'm hearing when I meet with indigenous leaders and especially first nations. They spend a lot of their time trying to fill out endless grant applications, but it's one community versus another in some cases because of sometimes limited funds. It just seems to be a vicious circle we're in where they at some point, as you pointed out, have to have not only the right people in place on the ground, but also the ability to fill out the right applications in order to potentially be successful in getting funding.

[Karen Hogan]

You're echoing comments we heard from the communities we met when we were doing this audit. They highlighted a few things for us. They said the complexity of the number of programs and the complexity of the applications were a barrier to them accessing funding. They felt that when they could access funding, it was typically very slow to flow to them.

There is a lack of really meaningful engagement. There's engagement in order to apply, but not really engagement to appreciate the needs of a community holistically. That's why I think we need a real fundamental shift instead of just saying, “Here's a program for certain types of funding.” We have decades of proof when it comes to housing that while it helps some, it's leaving 80% of the needs unmet. Something different needs to happen.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We talk about the CMHC, and some of this falls under their jurisdiction as well. I'm going to paraphrase here. You said during your comments that when you laid it out for the departments, CMHC included, they partially agreed with your diagnosis. How did they partially agree? It seems like in the fourth report, it's only getting worse. I don't understand what happened.