Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll carry on, then.

Please continue.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I understand that there are 680 first nations and Inuit communities, but if you look at the regions and the population of Métis, first nations and Inuit, how many Inuit were actually involved in the audit, and how many Inuit communities participated?

[Karen Hogan]

As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of communities covered by these two types of agreements, and we did a sample. We visited and talked to certain communities. I'll have to ask Mélanie if she can tell you which communities we actually spoke to. However, it wasn't the community service we were looking at; it was the service provided by the federal government to these communities.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Maybe I need to ask my question in English.

Since you've indicated 680 first nations and Inuit communities in the report, when you separate the first nations and Inuit, how many of those communities were Inuit communities?

[Mélanie Joanisse]

The number 680 that came from us is public. I think there are 51 Inuit communities in Canada, based on publicly available information.

As part of the audit, we looked at the communities that were receiving services under this program. A lot of Inuit communities are located in Nunavut, but not all of them. Nunavut currently only has a framework, so there are no communities that receive services under the program.

Nunavut has the bilateral framework, so Public Safety Canada has an agreement with Nunavut to start the program, but no community tripartite agreement was signed during the course of our audit, so we couldn't look at any communities there. We did, however, talk to Inuit organizations and to a northern Quebec region where there is an Inuit population, to make sure that voice was heard.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you. You may have trouble responding to this.

Another question I have is regarding first nations people and Inuit who have to move south to urban settings and have to leave their homeland. They keep moving to urban Canada. I'd like to know about the first nations people and Inuit who have moved to urban centres.

An increasing number of Inuit and first nations people are moving to urban centres. Do you have any idea how many are now living in urban centres like Edmonton, Winnipeg and Ottawa?

[Karen Hogan]

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I would have to direct you to perhaps Statistics Canada. They might be able to give you some information on demographic movements. I don't have that.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I believe a review should be done.

Should there be a review of law enforcement in urban centres, given that there is an increasing number of first nations people and Inuit moving to urban centres and they are often arrested for criminal activity? It's important that there be a review of law enforcement when it comes to indigenous people, like the Inuit and first nations living in urban centres, because more and more indigenous people are moving to these centres; the numbers are increasing. A review of law enforcement should happen in the urban centres.

[Karen Hogan]

I agree with you that a review should be done by independent bodies. When it comes to urban centres, however, policing is a provincial matter. What I can look at as the federal Auditor General is the program where the RCMP provides services. However, to actually look at the quality of the services would need to be looked at provincially or territorially.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Lastly, we know that indigenous affairs said $13 million and $45 million have been unspent. Probably more than those monies have not been spent. Do you feel we need to work better with those organizations? I ask because a lot of money is not being spent where it could really improve a lot of situations.

[Karen Hogan]

That's why we highlighted as a finding in our report that money is going unspent. If I compare that to the first hour of this hearing, when talked about housing, there isn't enough money being spent there, but here there is money available.

When it comes to ensuring the safety and security of a community, it's important to use those funds as they were intended, and even more so under this program. This program is meant to bring, really, the community cultural focus, not just bring the traditional policing services that one might expect from a police force. It is about rebuilding trust, and it is about ensuring that when communities are ready, they can transfer to self-administered policing services, which ultimately would most likely meet their needs better.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Next up we have Mr. Shields, who will have the floor for five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

The word “essential” has been used a number of times, but you also talk about program funding. Would you suggest the Ottawa Police Service is a program-funded essential service?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm aware of the legislation that's trying to have policing services declared essential, but there are different levels of policing services at different levels of government. As a citizen, I would appreciate policing services as long as they're done well.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

What I'm suggesting is that all the police services we see in our communities, other than indigenous, are essential and not program-funded. However, you state that they're program-funded, which means on a yearly basis somebody is developing a grant application and receiving money for their service. That doesn't happen for the rest of our police forces in Canada.

[Karen Hogan]

I think it's important to recognize the two different agreements here.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Yes. The self-determined ones I get.

[Karen Hogan]

That's correct. If we speak to—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I'm talking about the tripartite ones. That's where I'm going.

[Karen Hogan]

To speak to my comments earlier about having a fundamentally different approach when it comes to indigenous peoples and how services are provided to them, this could be included in that. Is it the right mechanism to have them apply to be part of a tripartite agreement to get access to funding? Right now, that's the policy environment.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That's not what the rest of the country lives with. Under the tripartite agreement, there has to be program funding, and that's not how the rest.... When we say “essential”, as long as it's program-funded, it's not essential, because program funding can quickly disappear, and the rest of our police services don't disappear.

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that's the current discussion and debate happening around whether or not policing services are an essential service and how that impacts this program. I can again speak to the siloed approach. How this is put forward is not working for indigenous people.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That's my point. As long as it's program-funded, it's not going to work. The rest of us think it's an essential service, but if it's program-funded, it's not an essential service. You can't use both terms. You can't call it essential if it's program-funded.

[Karen Hogan]

This is where policy-makers, like yourselves, can influence the outcome of the debate on this topic.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're using both terms in your report, and that's why I'm trying to clarify this, because as long as this is program-funded, using “essential services” is an oxymoron, in my opinion. You have to get it away from program funding. The self-administered ones are where it has to move.

You mentioned the provinces and talked about some of them not stepping up, and you were asked if you could supply who isn't stepping up. I know Alberta has. I know they've said they'll do the 48%. If you have it in your report here that some aren't, could you send us a list of the ones who aren't? We'd like to know who they are. If you're saying that in your report, you must know some aren't.