Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Yes, I will add a little bit, if I may.

Minister, I've had the pleasure of sitting on the agriculture committee for the past number of months, so I've actually been exposed to a fair amount here because we did a study on food price inflation and how to stabilize food prices. There are a couple of things that were talked about quite frequently there that I thought I would just bring to your attention and the attention of the committee.

One is data from the OECD in 2023. It's a little dated, but it's still relevant in that it shows that food price inflation in the United States.... The United States and Canada were the two lowest in the G7. They were virtually on par; it was a little bit lower in the United States.

So, my question has always been this, and perhaps you can reflect on this during my little preamble here: How is it that the cost of food in one jurisdiction, the United States, where there is no national carbon pricing policy is the same as it is in a federal jurisdiction like Canada where there is a national carbon pricing system? It seems to me that the United States would be substantially different and more advantageous if a carbon price was, in fact, driving this.

The second, and perhaps more recent, is that we have data compiled by the Library of Parliament, using Statistics Canada information, which very clearly shows us that in the last 18 months there has been a sharp decline in food price inflation across Canada. Now, at the same time, there has been an increase in the price on pollution. How is it, then, Minister, that at a time when the carbon price has increased—and it's important to note that as that price has increased, so too have rebates to Canadians—there has been a steady decline?

I see some smirking from my colleagues across the way. I will show them that information either during this meeting or after. I'd gladly table it for the committee to look at. This is Statistics Canada and Library of Parliament information; this isn't anecdotal. I will gladly show it, Mr. Shields. I will gladly show it.

Minister, please feel free to comment on that, but if I may, I do want to turn for a moment to this. You have shared several times that the Government of Canada is committed to ensuring that 100% of grocery subsidies are passed on to northerners from this program. Can you talk to us a little bit about the accountability measures that are currently in place to ensure that the nutrition north programs directly benefit northerners?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

First of all, that's an excellent point, and I commend the agriculture committee for doing that great work.

I think the whole issue that the Conservative Party has with the price on pollution is just slogan-based. It's not based in rationality, and if you take a really hard look at the facts, their slogans unravel very easily.

Let's go back to nutrition north, because this is a nutrition north meeting. We established the nutrition north compliance and audit review committee, which consists of members from the advisory board of nutrition north, members from the indigenous working group, and regional representatives from the Inuit-Crown food security working group. We also established the food security research grant several years ago as part of nutrition north. Through it, we will fund researchers who want to do research work on food insecurity in the north to come up with better ideas, new ideas, to address that or to give us some research on how we can make our programs more effective and more efficient to address food insecurity.

Having said all that, I will say that food insecurity and food inflation in the north are a huge issue. We have to do a better job. We are going about it earnestly, rolling up our sleeves, forming partnerships, and talking and collaborating with partners from the territories and indigenous governments, and that's not going to stop.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go now to Monsieur Lemire, who will have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here.

I would like to know more about what your department has done or intends to do in terms of increasing capacity within indigenous communities.

Have you already made investments to increase capacity within communities so that they can supplement their diets by hunting, fishing and harvesting? Have you looked at more funding for the equipment they need to hunt and fish? Do you have an assessment of the needs of indigenous communities and the amounts that would be required to meet them?

Could consideration be given to providing more funding for the infrastructure and equipment that indigenous people need? This would allow them to better provide for their communities themselves, which in turn could have a clear impact on the prices of consumer products.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you, that's a very good question.

It is important for our government to work in partnership with indigenous governments. A few years ago, we introduced the harvesters support grant under the Nutrition North Canada program. It provides financial incentives to aboriginal groups in the north so that there are more hunters, anglers, and gatherers in that region. This measure, which was developed in collaboration with our indigenous partners in Nunavut and probably Nunavik as well, is very popular and has shown good results. For example, since 2020, 15,000 harvesters have been supported. There have been 700 harvest-sharing initiatives and over 400 community hunts and harvests.

We continue to communicate and plan with our partners. We hope to develop other good projects together.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is indeed an important step in the right direction. I am still wondering how these programs will work out in the communities. Sometimes, the deadlines are too tight and the requirements are too strict, which means that the money ends up going back to the consolidated revenue fund. However, you have provided us with examples of positive outcomes, and I would like to hear more.

At the same time, we also know where the needs are. Can the government be more active in helping communities set up greenhouses, for example, to produce some fresh vegetables? Right now, lettuce is flown in by plane. Are there no other solutions? I'll give you another example: a dozen eggs there sell for $12 to $18 more than here. In that case, wouldn't it be worthwhile to bring in hens and build heated henhouses? Given that a dozen eggs cost $16 more there, having those henhouses in each community would be a fairly easy investment to get a return on.

Can local infrastructure solutions be implemented?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Yes, that's the idea.

First of all, it is important to note that in budget 2024, we invested over $100 million over three years to maintain the harvesters support grant program. We are seeking to work together on developing food infrastructure in the north.

In terms of greenhouses, there are good examples in the Northwest Territories. In Iqaluit as well, we visited some impressive greenhouses that have been set up in old arenas. There was a lot of fresh and affordable food, and the community was involved.

Our challenge is to create partnerships and projects with local communities so that they become owners of that infrastructure and use their know-how to produce food.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for answering in French. I really appreciate it.

Along the same lines, are there other ways to produce food to ensure food security in these communities, so that they are less dependent on products that come from the south and are delivered by air? For example, is there a way to make community cooking programs eligible for permanent funding? Could there be more of a focus on community cooking programs in the north?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Again, that's what the community food programs are all about. We want to involve schools and seniors' residences in sustainable solutions so that these communities have access to good, nutritious food. It's about opening the door, sitting at the same table, working together and talking. I know our officials are working hard on those kinds of solutions.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you. You will have the support of the Bloc Québécois to pursue these initiatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're at the end of the time.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That is one of the best answers I have heard since I was elected as a member of Parliament.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. Idlout, it is your turn for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.

I want to thank you personally, Dan, for inspiring this study, because it has been the lack of response that you've given to me since I've been elected that has come to this point. I asked my staff to look up how many times I've asked you questions in the House and how many times I've asked Order Paper questions. None of the responses that you have provided has been at all helpful to inform my constituents of what nutrition north is doing to alleviate poverty.

The Liberal government, as part of its effort to stabilize prices, invited grocery corporations like Loblaws to discuss what they're doing to lower prices. My first question for you, Minister, is this: Have you advised the Deputy Prime Minister and the industry minister to meet with the North West Company?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

As members of cabinet, we talk regularly on the importance of food security, the importance of affordability—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Can you answer my question, please?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I am answering your question. On the importance of affordability in the food security area, I know that we are all on the same page—whether it's the industry minister, the Deputy Prime Minister or the Prime Minister—on addressing this important issue.

It's important to note that in budget 2024 there's over $100 million for the harvesters support grant—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm going to interrupt you. I don't have enough time. From your response, I'm going to infer that you did not advise the Deputy Prime Minister and the industry minister to meet with the North West Company.

I've been alarmed to hear that this government is giving millions to companies that make $200 million in profits. We learned today, for example, that the North West Company CEO makes $3.91 million. Your Liberal government is subsidizing the North West Company.

How will you make sure that nutrition north is actually improving? I've been asking over and over again for reform, and your final response to me was to provide an internal review. Why do my residents not deserve an audit from the Auditor General? Why did you respond with an internal review?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

With all due respect, Lori, you're only giving half of my answer there.

First of all, I told you how important affordability in the north is. I also informed you that we were doing an internal review. We have funded five research projects on nutrition north that are indigenous-led, which are very interesting. Also, we will do an external audit once the internal review is done. You've never said the last part of what I just mentioned about the external audit. You've only tweeted that I answered with an internal review.

We have these conversations. They're good conversations, but then you report only half of our conversation.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

It is really unfortunate that you're choosing to ignore my direct request to you for an audit from the Auditor General; it really is.

Unfortunately, based on your responses and your unwillingness to make sure that my constituents get the answers they deserve, we are being forced to ask these kinds of direct questions.

I'm going to ask you a similar question that I asked the North West Company. I was in Kimmirut last March, and I took two photos: one at the local co-op and one at the Northern store, both of which use the nutrition north program. On that one day, in that one community, the price of eggs at the co-op was $3.99, and at the Northern store, it was $6.49. Why is it that the co-op is able to successfully use it, and why is it that the Northern store is not?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

That's an excellent question. There's an internal compliance. That's why we're working together on that now. That's why we're doing the internal review, and that's why we're going to do an external audit once this is done. I'm 100% committed that 100% of the subsidy will go to consumers, the people who actually buy and need the food in the north. I've told you that many times, and I'll continue to say it, because it's really our government's commitment and my commitment.

I can say that I've had good conversations with some of the researchers who are doing this grant. They've raised some very valid questions, but all of them have also said that nutrition north is doing good work, and not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm going to repeat this: Obviously nutrition north is not working, when the poverty rate in Nunavut is almost 40% and the food insecurity rate is 46%. We are not looking for complete solutions. We are looking for solvable solutions. With the Liberal government, you are not doing what you can to make sure that poverty is being alleviated, not when these rates are that high and not when there's a difference between a co-op store offering a dozen eggs for $3.99 and the Northern store in the same community, on the same day, pricing them at $6.49, and that same company is profiting over $200 million.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time, but, Minister, I'll give you the opportunity for a brief response.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I agree with MP Idlout. It's a shame that the poverty rate is as high as it is. It's more than a shame; it's horrible. Nutrition north will certainly work hard to do its part, but to think that one program in one department of the government will solve poverty in Canada or in the north is unrealistic. It has to be a whole-of-government approach. Territorial governments have to be involved. Indigenous governments have to be involved, and community leadership needs to be involved. We're committed to keep working in that way.