Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Good afternoon, everybody. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 110 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I want to start by recognizing that we meet on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and express gratitude that we're able to do this important work on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Because this is my first time here as chair of this committee, I want to say that it's really an honour to be back on this committee and to be working with all of you. I very much enjoyed my previous time on the committee, and I'm looking forward to the work that we're going to do together.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Today, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee is meeting to, first, study the main estimates for the fiscal year ending on March 31, 2025, referred to the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs: Canadian High Arctic Research Station, vote 1; Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, votes 1, 5, 10 and L15; and Department of Indigenous Services, votes 1, 5 and 10.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Only use the black, approved earpiece. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you are not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose.

I thank you all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

As a reminder, taking photos is not permitted when the committee sits.

With that, I would like to welcome witnesses for our first panel today. The Honourable Gary Anandasangaree, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, is here. From the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, we have Valerie Gideon, deputy minister; Martin Reiher, senior assistant deputy minister, treaties and aboriginal government; Garima Dwivedi, assistant deputy minister, resolution and partnerships; Georgina Lloyd, assistant deputy minister, northern affairs; Bruno Steinke, senior director, consultation and accommodation unit; and Darlene Bess, chief finances, results and delivery officer.

With that, I'll turn it over to our first witness here.

Minister, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Kwe kwe. Ullukkut. Tansi. Hello. Bonjour.

I want to start by acknowledging that Canada's Parliament is located on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people.

I'm glad to be back at this committee with my colleagues and departmental officials.

I want to thank the former chair for the work he has done, not only as chair but also as a member of Parliament.

I want to congratulate you, Chair, Patrick Weiler. I look forward to seeing the work of this committee under your leadership.

I will start by reiterating something I've said before. Reconciliation is not a destination; it's a multi-generational journey and requires a long-term commitment. That includes sustained and ongoing investments, which we'll talk about today through the main estimates.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission's 94 calls to action, including the recently passed National Council for Reconciliation Act, as well as the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, continue to support our journey toward an era of renewed relations with indigenous peoples, one that is characterized by recognizing and supporting indigenous peoples in advancing their goals and resolving historical injustices, including through financial settlements.

We're gaining momentum down a future equitable path of hope and prosperity. The investments for indigenous peoples announced in the budget will help us move forward on this path.

As you know, the main estimates are the first step in the fiscal cycle and do not include funding from budget 2024 investments. Those will happen through future estimates.

This year CIRNAC's main estimates total $10.9 billion, which reflects a net increase of $1.8 billion compared to last year. This increase is primarily attributed to a higher level of funding received for the settlement of claims and litigation. We can't undo the wrongs of the past, but we seek to address the harms that were caused by Canada's colonial legacy.

This is key, in my opinion, to rebuilding trust in order to move forward on such very important issues as land being given back, agricultural benefits and advanced economic reconciliation by investing in indigenous-led solutions. We plan to use these funds to settle claims more quickly, as with the agricultural benefit claims under our expedited resolution strategy. Last year alone we settled nine of these claims, for a total settlement of $975.4 million for such communities as Pine Creek First Nation and English River First Nation.

As we make amends for the past, we must stay focused on the future, where the rights of indigenous peoples are respected and they have control over their governance and self-determination, their lands, their waters and their children. In that sense, I've seen how modern treaties have the power to deliver results. Contributing to this, $2.2 billion will go towards managing and implementing agreements and treaties, targeting 93 additional arrangements by March 2025.

I think of the modern treaties we are hoping to sign in the very near future in British Columbia, which will tangibly make life better for people in those communities. However, signing agreements alone won't build trust. For 20 years, partners have called for independent oversight to make sure we keep our modern treaty promises. On May 2 we took a step forward in fixing that when the Prime Minister announced that the commissioner for modern treaty implementation will be established. Like the national council for reconciliation, it's another step to hold the government accountable as we continue on this path.

I'd like to take a moment to go over some of the new budget 2024 investments that are not captured in the main estimates. They will contribute to our nation-to-nation work with communities.

There is $918 million for housing and infrastructure, including $62 million for self-governing and modern treaty first nations, $370 million for Inuit communities and $60 million for Métis.

There is $96 million to document, locate and memorialize burial sites at former residential schools and to combat the harmful effects of denialism. There is over $21 million for initiatives related to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, including the development of a red dress alert system. There is more than $12 million to empower indigenous youth, meeting call to action 66.

There is a $5-billion loan guarantee program to support the participation of indigenous communities in energy and natural resource projects.

From the place we are right now, there is only one way we can go, which is forward. Reconciliation is a one-way street. That means sustaining this action and sustaining these increased investments. Since 2015 investments in indigenous priorities have increased threefold. Since 2015 indigenous people have a partner in the federal government, one that takes their meetings and helps advance their priorities, such as finding their missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit individuals, and seeking justice for those lives stolen.

I look forward to the conversation today.

Meegwetch. Qujannamiik. Marsi. Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Minister.

With that, we will go to the first round of questioning. This is a six-minute round. It will start with the Conservative Party.

Mr. Schmale, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. Congratulations on your new role. I look forward to working with you.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing.

Minister, you just said in your comments that indigenous peoples “have a partner” in your government. Perhaps we can start with just a basic question. What percentage of workers were actually indigenous who worked on the ArriveCAN app?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

That's a very good question. It's one that I'm not actually able to answer, Jamie. It's something that should be directed to Minister Hajdu.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

The answer is actually zero, unfortunately.

Minister, this is on the settlements that your department has finalized. I can talk in particular about the $40 billion for child welfare that was recently worked out through the courts and otherwise. Of that, $20 billion is specifically for compensation.

Could you briefly explain to this committee what safeguards are in place to ensure that there are no non-indigenous people looking to potentially access this compensation, which is specifically meant for those victims?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Again, Jamie, I will not be able to answer that question. That's something that should be directed to the Minister of Indigenous Services Canada.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Is your department at least preparing some kind of safeguard that might be able to work with other departments to ensure there are actually indigenous peoples—the victims—getting this money?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I can speak about other settlements. In the context of child welfare, it's not something I'm able to answer.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We can talk about some potential other settlements that have been made, but I'm guessing your answer is going to be the same.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

No, I think I can speak about a number of other settlements. If it's something like McLean, I can answer.

There are others that we're part of. It depends on what the situation is.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I think the broader context is that we have seen through the ArriveCAN scandal that there were supposed to be indigenous peoples able to get some work from this and potentially businesses able to benefit. That, unfortunately, was not the case.

I have concerns based on what happened through the pandemic with CERB and the fraud that took place there. My concern now is that the victims who have waited way too long for this settlement might have to compete with non-indigenous people who might see this large number and want to access some of it.

I was hoping that your department, given the fact that it was involved somewhat in these settlements, would have the ability to at least put forward some suggestions on safeguards to ensure that the money is going to the proper place, which is the victims.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

There are a number of settlements that we're involved with on an ongoing basis, and we have processes for them. If there's a specific example that you want me to speak about, I can elaborate on that.

To your broader question about representation, it is something that I'm very much attuned to. Even as we are now looking at future settlements that involve settlement administrators and counsel, this is a live conversation that I'm having with our department right now.

I would note that very recently one of our colleagues wrote to me. Lori wrote to me about a very specific incident and issues around settlement. There are definitely issues that we're looking at.

On the notion of representation, it is very critical to the work that we do. Whether it's on the administration side or whether it's legal counsel and legal representation, it's very important that we have indigenous people very much part and parcel of those decisions that are made. It's something that we're very committed to.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you.

Let's quickly jump over to Bill C-53. It's a piece of legislation that had a bit of a bumpy ride through committee, hearing arguments for and against it. Of course, now the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan has broken away and is going to pursue its own path.

I know you came in halfway through. You were made minister as this process was already ongoing. My critique was that it had become very clear and very obvious that the government did not do its homework on this or ensure that proper consultations were done before that legislation was brought forward.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

First of all, I want to thank the committee for the work on Bill C-53. I know it was a very long study. The recognition of Métis rights is quite important and it's one that, as a government, we're committed to moving forward on.

With respect to Bill C-53, it was legislation that was codeveloped by the Métis nations of Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Extensive work and consultation went on before the bill was actually presented to Parliament. The decision by the Alberta courts with respect to the Fort McKay Métis as well as the Metis Settlements General Council has given us a moment to pause.

At the same time, with the decision of the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, we are reflecting on what the next steps are in this process. We are in constant engagement with both the Métis nations of Ontario and Alberta to see how we move forward.

I will be glad to report back to the committee as we progress on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

That's six minutes. Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

Next we have Mr. McLeod, virtually, for six minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, minister. Thank you for joining us. I certainly appreciate your coming to talk to us.

I think you know where my concerns are when it comes to some of the work that we're doing in the Northwest Territories. The indigenous governments across the Northwest Territories, as you know, are very eager to make progress with the Government of Canada at the negotiation tables and at the discussions for modern treaties.

I had to smile when I heard you say that these negotiations are multi-generational journeys, because I got involved with the land claims in my part of the world here in the Northwest Territories when I was a teenager. I'm going to be 65 years old in a few months, and I don't expect we're going to see a settlement. I don't expect to see a settlement in my lifetime, so it may be something that my children will take up. Maybe my grandchildren might see some benefit.

There is concern because there is an attempt to move forward in a nation-to-nation type of relationship, but one nation is insisting that the other nation sign a document that includes a clause that says they cede and surrender rights. I don't think that's very respectful. As you indicated, the process needs to respect rights. Our government is still insisting on a cede and surrender clause, and it's something that many nations will never accept. I have been talking to you and to every minister before you about getting rid of the comprehensive claims policy and of the clause that is so offensive. It's a policy that is failing the indigenous people, so I ask you my first question around this issue.

Are you doing any work towards making new policies that are more respectful and new policies with some indigenous governments that have been struggling to move forward but can't accept this policy? Is there a path forward, with a new approach and a new process, to get land claims and some government agreements negotiated, agreed to and implemented?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Michael. I know we have spoken about this on a number of occasions, and I think it's important to recognize that we've been trying to move away from some of our very stringent and colonial policies, which really prevented us from breaking through on very important self-governance agreements.

I believe in the work that we're doing in British Columbia, for example. We are on the cusp of completing a number of treaties, and we have advanced on a number of issues that prevented us from being able to conclude agreements. We are moving away, to some extent, from the comprehensive land claims policy and the inherent right to self-determination policy. The approach that we're taking at the tables is quite different and very constructive towards resolving and reaching agreement.

I note that Martin Reiher is here. He is our ADM on our “tag team”, as we call it. Martin, I know, will be retiring soon. I will take a moment to congratulate him and to thank him for his work, but I also invite him to shed some light on the question.

[Martin Reiher, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

If I may, Mr. Chair, very briefly, in the last few years we actually have moved away from requiring surrender of rights in our treaties or agreements. I do admit that this is not well-known across the country, and it will be important to continue to communicate this to all nations. In order to do that, there is an action plan measure—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Can I just interrupt you for clarity? I don't have a lot of time. When you say, “we've moved away,” I've heard that referred to many times when it comes to the comprehensive claims policy and the cede and surrender. If we moved away from it, why can't we get rid of it? Why are we just saying, “we moved away”? The minister says it. Negotiators don't say the same thing.

[Martin Reiher]

In 2019, in British Columbia, there was a policy that was adopted, the recognition and reconciliation of rights policy, which actually replaced the comprehensive claims policy for B.C. We are prepared to do the same across the country. There was an action plan measure number 23, under the UNDA, where the government actually committed to work on codeveloping a public statement stating what the current policies are and to replace the comprehensive claims policy and inherent right policy with that new statement.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I want to ask my last question, but before I do that I want to point out that the recognition and reconciliation of rights policy in B.C took 15 years to negotiate. If we're going to start that in the Northwest Territories, I'll certainly never see a resolution to the land claims.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. McLeod, I'm sorry, but we're running out of time. There's just time for a very quick question and a very quick answer.