Evidence of meeting #112 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tax.
A video is available from Parliament.
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I'm sorry. I didn't understand the question. What was the impact of which taxes?
Conservative
Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
I asked about the impact of the carbon tax because you mentioned the carbon tax earlier and how it would affect the communities with industry in the backyards and natural resource development.
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Oh, I see.
I was only commenting on the questions that were raised in the motion. Frankly, I had to take a step back and ask what impact this would have, and I was just using a hypothetical that it does appear that industries are in our backyards and that we are greatly affected by them. For us to be more active recipients of that just would make sense. How we go about that, I don't know, and I would not be able to know what direct impact that would have. I don't have enough data to say one thing strongly on that one way or the other.
Conservative
Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Continuing on the first point, with relation to economic reconciliation, multiple EV battery plants have been coming up around the country. Again, my first nations have told me that they have not received consultation or inclusion in proper consultation with first nations.
Would you say that the inclusion of the first nations in these discussions would have been a measure of economic reconciliation?
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Yes, and I think especially if they're raising it.
I will go back to my asking what the process was for communications. I just need to be careful: I have been working in some communities where communications have been sent, but they haven't been followed up on, so I'd like to see what communications were done.
However, if it was a gap, then just let's say, “Okay, sorry, oops.” Let's get people involved as early as possible. I do know that the earlier we're involved, the better the results you're going to get.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Rood. I forgot to say welcome to the INAN committee. It's a pleasure to have you here today.
With that, we're going to move on to our second questioner in the second round. We have Mr. Powlowski for five minutes.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thanks.
Mr. Leach, you talked about communities that opted into the First Nations Land Management Act early and had been aggressive and had prospered because of it. That was in response to a question about how those communities had benefited.
I wonder if you're able to relate that to the tax angle, because obviously we're talking here about tax. I understand that under the First Nations Land Management Act, there are some provisions related to real property tax.
Maybe you don't want to divulge what you could consider confidential information as to which communities have actually prospered from taxing under the First Nations Land Management Act, the first nations goods and services tax or the first nations sales tax. All of those are opportunities to make money. Maybe once you do that, Mr. Foss could also respond.
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I can say this generally speaking. I am in the Coast Salish territory, and property values are very high there. If you think about it, if a first nation wanted to build a bunch of homes there and sell them on 99-year leases and collect those property taxes every year, they could set up a pretty nice little system there—and they have.
Those who have done that—and thank you for the confidentiality qualifier, because I do feel obligated—have set up infrastructures where I find the taxpayers are griping less than the neighbouring municipality's taxpayers, who go on like this: “What's going on here? They're not griping as much as we are. What's up with that?”
To me, there's something there that should be further explored about if there's any concern about our taking over specific tax regimes and that it's going to fall. I think there's data out there that could be generated that says otherwise.
With respect to the land management act, all I was saying is that there is definitely a link. Once they go through that process, they're creating an environment to get the tax infrastructure in place so that they can collect on that. I think we've seen that those who have done those two things have done quite well—in Coast Salish territory, for sure.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Before I ask Mr. Foss the same question, my understanding is that under the Indian Act there is some ability to collect taxes on real property. Are the ones who have benefited all been under the First Nations Land Management Act? Do they have to opt in before they can benefit from that?
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
It's been those who have opted in, 100%. The word is this: If we use the Indian Act to get any of these things, we're buried. It's only on the new systems that we have done better.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Mr. Foss, you don't have to actually name the communities, but give some examples of communities that benefited from using their tax revenue to better the communities.
Vice-President, Research and Public Policy, Canadian Council for Indigenous Business
I'm sorry, but I don't have examples for you.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I'll go back to Mr. Leach.
My understanding is that there are 14 communities under aboriginal self-government agreements—and this was news to me when one of my assistants told me about it—that have imposed some sort of personal income tax. I hadn't heard this before.
Can you tell me about those communities' experiences? Has this been financially beneficial to the communities, or has it really pissed off lots of taxpayers, or both?
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
That's a good question.
Each member of the first nations who had to vote to support or approve this knew very well—because there was a lot of consultation—that this was one of the things that would come from it, and they're not happy now.
I know some of the communities that have gone through this, and the leadership largely say that this was a good thing and that the pros outweigh the cons. I guess it depends on who you talk to there. In those who have gone through the self-government path, generally speaking, there's a positivity among the leadership, but I know that when you talk to the members, they are not so happy. I guess it depends on who you talk to.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
A big thing thing in Thunder Bay and a lot of communities is going to first nations to buy your gas. There must be a trade-off in terms of taxing gas. The reason people go there is that it's cheaper because of the tax advantage. If you start imposing a tax, perhaps you lose that advantage. I would imagine that there's a sweet spot in terms of taxing that revenue.
I wonder, Mr. Foss, if you have any ideas. Otherwise, I'll go to Mr. Leach again.
Vice-President, Research and Public Policy, Canadian Council for Indigenous Business
Clearly there will be a sweet spot associated with that. I think it's up to those communities to figure that out, because they work through and practise how that balances out.
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Yes, there's definitely a sweet spot.
If you go to some communities in my area, there will be some who just won't use the first nations gas. They're first nations, and they won't use the gas station because of the tax amount. I'm thinking that if you're saving anyway, why don't you just use it? You know, you're saving, but they won't, because of the amount.
Then they have these different prices. Members get this kind of discount, and non-members get that kind of discount. There are all these little things that come up, so there's definitely a sweet spot.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Powlowski.
Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Leach, you probably attended the economic reconciliation round table held in February by Indigenous Services Canada. There were a number of participants.
What do you think of the direction the federal government wants to take on economic reconciliation?
Have indigenous rights holders been heard and listened to, in your opinion? Are their views sufficiently taken into account?
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I mean this with the utmost respect to all governments, but it's an education process for anybody we're working with, anybody we interface with who has old ideas and old ways of doing things. Quite frankly, we just have to educate them on what this means for us.
As I said, we have to learn too. To me, economic reconciliation has been a new idea for us. A lot of stuff has gone on with us in trying to get out of a way of thinking. Fortunately, we've had good leaders who have got us to this place, have said this is kind of what ballpark figure it means, and we've been able to build off it.
I think there's a continued dialogue that we're going to have with all governments over the next generation. Hopefully we'll continue to refine this and affirm it, and we'll learn from each other and ultimately get to the sweet spot, the best place that works for both of us.
Let's work in that climate to be able to do good things. I know there's that spot and that we can do it. It's a work in progress right now.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
How do you interpret the right to free, prior and informed consent? Do you think its scope should be substantially enhanced?
Chair, Board of Directors, Tale’Awtxw Aboriginal Capital Corporation, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I'm sorry; I missed the question. Was it about consent?