Evidence of meeting #114 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.
A video is available from Parliament.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
The minister would need to go through the whole consultation process before making the protection zone, so it wouldn't be a unilateral process. The minister would need to get that feedback from from first nations.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
What I'm getting at is that the consultation process is a bit fluid. It's not necessarily something that the minister must strictly adhere to, as we've seen just in the simple development of this legislation.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
I would say that the minister would need to sit down with first nations. It's not something she could simply do on her own or his own. There would need to be this buy-in from first nations because these protection zones are relevant to particular first nation lands and the circumstances may vary.
I think making a definition that tried to fit everyone without talking to the impact of first nations would not be successful. That's why we've tried to build in this idea about consultation and co-operation.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Absolutely, and don't get me wrong: I think the consultation aspect is very important. I'm definitely on board with that. Where I have concern is how extensive that consultation will be and if the minister theoretically has the power to check a box and say that they sent an email to a first nation and then can make that decision on what a protection zone is, because it says in regulation that the minister will make that determination.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
I think, given the trend these days, that there has been a concerted effort to ensure that first nation voices are heard on a wide variety of topics of—
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
I'm running out of time. Legally, is there a mechanism that can be embedded within that to ensure that the minister can't unilaterally make that decision on their own?
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
You could put something in the legislation that potentially went beyond consultation and co-operation, yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.
We'll move on to our second questioner in the second round.
Mr. Scarpaleggia, you will have five minutes. The floor is over to you.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm very happy to be here today to discuss this legislation.
In order to understand the issues better and the solutions that are being brought by this bill, I'd like to focus a little more on practical outcome questions.
My understanding is that, at the moment, there are no legally enforceable drinking water standards in first nation communities. That's correct, but clearly the operators of the filtration plants must be adhering to some standards. Would this vary by community, or would they be adhering to the national federal/provincial unenforceable water quality standards?
Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services
I think that there are certainly many fantastic operators who are operating very complex systems in many, if not all, first nations right now. The void is largely around enforceability of legislation and the regulatory gap in terms of standards and practices on water operations.
Typically, first nations follow Canadian drinking water guidelines or the guidelines of a given provincial jurisdiction like here in unceded Algonquin territory in present-day Ontario. They're very strident regulations and standards that govern water administration in the provincial context. There are many first nations that kind of mirror those standards and regulations in their particular communities. I think the biggest gap is around first nations' voice and control over law-making and regulatory ability on their lands, and also the lack of enforceability should there be issues related to the administration of water or water systems.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
That's interesting. The operators have the choice of adhering to the same standards as a local municipality, or they could cho0se the Canadian drinking water guidelines.
I'm trying to understand the difference between this bill and the previous bill that was rescinded. How did the previous bill treat drinking water standards? Did it have a requirement that is maybe not as good as the requirement in this bill for creating and maintaining enforceable standards? What's the main difference between the previous Conservative bill and this one, other than the funding issue and recognizing the right to management of first nations' water, which is extremely important. On the standards issue, what is the difference between this bill and the previous bill?
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
The previous bill from 2013 really focused on enabling a regulation-making framework, so it did not have specific standards in it. This bill does have specific standards for drinking water quality, water quantity and wastewater services as well, so that is a key difference.
In addition to the funding that you mentioned, rights' recognition is in this bill and not the previous bill, as well as the water commission for those wraparound support services that are in this bill but not in the previous bill. Lastly, those co-operation and consultation requirements weren't in a previous bill either in relation to that regulatory framework.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you.
It's much stricter in terms of creating and maintaining standards.
To Mr. Lemire's point, you mentioned that this bill provides the right to engage with municipalities. Did I understand correctly? Is that what Mr. Lemire was saying, that through this bill the federal government can engage with municipalities, including in Quebec?
Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services
In essence, yes. What this bill does in the concept of protection zones—
Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services
—is to align laws that are laws both on and off reserve, which requires, obviously, a dialogue between first nations and provincial, territorial and municipal governments that administer those laws and systems.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I know that when it comes to financing infrastructure in cities in Quebec, a city needs to obtain approval—it's called an M-30 in Quebec—before any federal money can float to that municipality, but are there any restrictions within Quebec law that prevent a first nation or the federal government from consulting a local municipality in the way you've just described?
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I'm sorry about that. Time flies. You don't realize it when you're asking the question.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
Sir, are you wondering if there's anything in Quebec law that prevents the federal government from consulting with Quebec municipalities?
Liberal
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
I don't know Quebec law, I must admit.
Liberal
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
No, nothing I've heard of.