Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

It's great to see everybody here after a summer recess. I hope everybody has had a very nice time in their constituencies and meeting with their constituents.

I want to welcome everybody to meeting number 117 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. As always, we start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples. I want to express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Before we begin, I would like to ask that all in-person participants read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You'll also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video. You'll notice that the microphones are a bit different from what they were prior to the summer. Just make sure you toggle to the appropriate language before we get started here.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting.

I would like to remind the participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hands if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom, and the clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

Just so you know, we will have time for committee business at the end of this meeting as well.

With that, I'd like to welcome the witnesses we have here today: Mr. John Paul, executive director of the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat; Vice-Chief David Pratt from the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations; and, from the First Nations Advisory Committee on Safe Drinking Water, Mr. John Brown in person and Ms. Emily Whetung-MacInnes online.

We are going to get into the introductory remarks for each of the three witnesses, starting with Mr. Paul.

You have five minutes.

[John Paul, Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the committee for providing an opportunity to provide direct input into this very important piece of federal legislation. I work on behalf of 33 elected first nations chiefs across Atlantic Canada and the Gaspé in Quebec.

Our not-for-profit organization has been in place for over 30 years. Our organization is a policy research organization that analyzes and develops culturally...alternatives to federal policies that impact our Mi'kmaq, Wolastoqiyik, Innu and Peskotomuhkati communities and people.

Our chiefs and staff work to develop a strong voice for all of our communities and people. The development of this legislation has taken a long time, and our chiefs have been involved since the beginning of the discussions with the expert panel on safe drinking water for first nations and the report completed in November 2006.

Our chiefs have always supported the idea of a clear legislative and regulatory regime to ensure equality in the provision of safe drinking water to all of our communities and the safe disposal of waste water. This was the only way in which our first nations would be equals to non-indigenous communities across Canada. Both detailed legislation and comprehensive regulations are needed to ensure that there is a direct connection with the supply of water to the taps in every home in all of our communities.

We clearly remember the crisis that occurred after the Walkerton tragedy in 2010 and the actions by all governments to ensure standards were followed by all communities across Canada, including first nations.

Our chiefs believe it is important to remind everybody why we are here at this point today. To our people and communities, water is an important part of our traditions and culture, and it has been important since time immemorial. Our people have used it to survive and have had traditional ways to ensure water was safe for use in all communities.

In the modern context this has not changed, and all of our communities want safe drinking water for all of our people.

I would now like to outline some key aspects of the legislation that could be improved.

First nations water quality is currently unregulated. Bill C-61 allows first nations to create their own regulations for water and waste-water quality, which, at the minimum, must align with the guidelines for Canadian drinking water quality and either the waste-water system effluent regulations or provincial standards.

The waste-water regulations must consider an environmental risk assessment of the receiving water body. Our chiefs support water and waste-water regulations, as a regulatory framework supports operational and design conditions for our first nations' conditions, consistent with non-indigenous communities. However, regulations developed under C-61 must be met with adequate funding.

With the key first nations standards that are identified within the legislation, our chiefs, in co-operation with the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority, communicated that it will be necessary for Indigenous Services Canada to develop, in partnership with first nations, a comprehensive funding framework within the first year of the act achieving royal assent.

Subclause 27(5) states that “The Minister must make best efforts to begin consultations” on a funding framework within six months of the section coming into force. This is encouraging. However, while there is a mandate to start the work, there is no required deadline to finish it. Our committees believe there must be a commitment to finalize the funding framework within two years of the legislation meeting royal assent. It is essential.

Further to funding, if a first nation creates standards above the guidelines of the Canadian drinking water quality or waste-water system effluent regulations, funding must be adequate to design, install, operate, maintain and monitor the infrastructure required to meet those standards.

Having said that, I must emphasize the need for adequate funding for operations and maintenance on an ongoing basis. Additionally, increased treatment processes require advanced operator training. We must look 20 to 25 years in the future, as the need for safe drinking water will still exist.

More importantly, paragraph 27(2)(d) identifies enforcement as an important element to be considered in the funding framework. Today, there is no precedent for enforcing regulations regarding water services in first nations. Clause 24 enables “the Minister or a provincial, territorial or municipal government or...any public body acting under the authority of the First Nation” to enforce first nations bylaws. Preferably, it will be a first nation-designed and -led enforcement body. It is unclear what the actual cost of enforcement would be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Paul, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up here, if you can. We're over the time.

If you can, just wrap it up. We'll have more time in the questions as well.

[John Paul]

Finally, we are encouraged to note that standards developed must apply to both individual and decentralized systems. It is essential that all systems in all communities be included under the regulatory regime. A system that excludes people within your own community from safe drinking water is a system that doesn't work. We need a system that works, and we need the funding to ensure that there are no gaps and holes in the system for the provision of water and the disposal of waste water.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you so much, Mr. Paul.

Next, joining us by video conference, we have Vice-Chief David Pratt.

You have five minutes for your introductory remarks.

[Vice-Chief David Pratt, First Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, as well as to the clerk and all the committee members today. I'll get right into my statement so we can get into discussion and questions. Thank you all today for your time. I want to acknowledge the beautiful, unceded and unsurrendered Treaty 4 territory that I'm calling from in the city of Regina today.

Good afternoon, members of the INAN committee, staff, my fellow presenters and those observing in person and online. On behalf of the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations, which represents the 74 first nations in Saskatchewan and Treaties 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10, I bring greetings and express my thanks for being given the opportunity to speak to Bill C-61. The FSIN supports federal legislation respecting first nations drinking water, waste water and source water. However, we have concerns regarding the act in its present form. I will note that it has been improved significantly since it was introduced in February 2023, but there's more that needs to be done.

The recommendations in the paper we submitted earlier are based on the position held in our territories since the signing of the numbered treaties and are entirely consistent with UNDRIP, the UN covenant on human rights, the 1982 Constitution Act and the 1763 Royal Proclamation. We hold that as an equal partner in treaty, our nations remain sovereign. It should be rightfully acknowledged, in the current context, as an order of government alongside the federal and provincial governments.

The functionality of this means our job here is to work towards sharing jurisdiction and powers within a co-operative confederation built on reconciliation. This position has been described as treaty federalism. It should be noted that the Constitution Act says nothing on the structure of federalism, only that Canada is the creation of our interlocked rights. Sovereign rights and powers of first nations, which are the basis for all treaty agreements, form the oldest foundation of the Constitution. This is why we call certain sections of Bill C-61 a legislative overreach. The aboriginal treaty rights in section 35 include self-determination. We determine our path. Bill C-61 says Canada affirms first nations' right to self-government, and jurisdiction that imposes layers of federal law narrows our jurisdiction until there is very little room to move.

None of this has anything to do with drinking water and should be taken out. Fresh water will become highly valuable in the near future, and we see the legislative overreach in Bill C-61 as part of a larger strategy by Canada to strengthen its decision-making over water.

We understand this strategy includes the Canada Water Agency and the modernization of the Canada Water Act. However, the paltering that has occurred to draw attention away from the connection between Bill C-61 and these other initiatives raises concern that an additional motive of the strategy is to limit our rights, especially given the overreach described in the paper. Section 35 means that any discussions regarding source water protection or interjurisdictional agreements should occur at treaty tables on a nation-to-nation basis, not through a policy process administered by the Canada Water Agency, which seems to be implied in clause 6(1)(b). As your treaty partner, we remind Canada that our relationship already contains collaborative processes that can be used to reach durable agreements.

When this bill was first discussed, it was in the context of fulfilling Canada's fiduciary duty and preventing another water crisis. If this is still the case, then the use of the “best efforts” clause and sections relating to funding must be amended. It does nothing more than create a loophole that undermines the entire intent and purpose of the act. If Canada truly wants to affirm our section 35 rights and jurisdiction, as stated in the preamble, it will provide us with the proper resources to develop and enforce our own laws and not impose its own beyond what is necessary to ensure proper waste-water and fresh water services for all first nations and prevent future crises. This would be a positive step towards reconciliation and a good way to honour those in our communities who have been affected by a lack of clean water.

Thank you for listening. To committee members, to the staff and to my colleagues, I wish you all good luck in this important work.

[Witness spoke in indigenous language]

[English]

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Vice-Chief Pratt.

With that, we are going to go to our witnesses from the First Nations Advisory Committee on Safe Drinking Water. I understand Chief Emerita Whetung-MacInnes is going to be providing five minutes of opening remarks.

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes, Chief Emerita, First Nations Advisory Committee on Safe Drinking Water]

Thank you.

[Witness spoke in indigenous language]

[English]

Good afternoon, Chair and committee.

I am joined today by John Brown, who is in the room with you.

My name is Emily Whetung, and I am chief emerita of Curve Lake First Nation and chair of the First Nations Advisory Committee on Safe Drinking Water. I am also one of the individual representative plaintiffs in the access to safe drinking water class action.

I'm here today with one request, which is this: Please do not politicize first nations' access to one of the basic necessities of life. This is a matter that is too important to get caught up in party politics. The legislation that you're considering relates to a subsection of Canadians whose human rights have been ignored for too long. You've heard this sentiment before. You've maybe even seen it in the media, but I'd like to take these first few moments to tell you what this means on a personal level.

It means that when I became a mother in 2014, I had to make sure that the bathwater didn't go in my children's mouths, because it might have made them sick. It means that as they got older, I had to take extra time, coordination, money and energy to get bottled water to make their food safe. It means that all of their beautiful baby and infant pastel-coloured clothes became gray, worn and brown, because the water we washed with was so full of sedimentation that their baby clothes were discoloured. My baby struggled with eczema and skin rashes, which I can only assume was a result of the water issues we faced.

My community doesn't have the worst drinking water in Canada.

It means that eventually I paid over $10,000 personally to have the water issues I faced fixed. Please understand that I say “fixed”, but the system did not eliminate these issues. It simply made the water drinkable and slowed down the wear and deterioration of our clothing and appliances.

These are the everyday struggles of indigenous people across Canada. I want to share with you that my first nation is not remote. It's not in the north. It's three or four hours west and south of Ottawa, where you sit now.

My grandfather lived to be 99, and he passed away in 2021. He would sit by the lake and tell my children and me the stories of how clear and clean the water was when he was young, how you could drink it from the lake, and his memories of our family being healthy and well. When I was a child, he had a water treatment system installed in his home in order to provide for his family. It's a big family. He had 13 children. Everyone who lived nearby would come to his house in the evenings or on weekends with water jugs to fill them up. While it made him proud to be able to take care of us in this way, it's heartbreaking to think that in southern Ontario this had to happen.

I'll say it again. I'm here today with one request. Help Bill C-61 make its way through the legislative process. Help first nations take the first steps toward positive legislation that provides access to clean drinking water. At the very least, move this legislation forward to meet the minimum obligations of the class action settlement agreement.

In my culture, time and attention are a gift, and I would like to express my gratitude for the gift that you've given all of us today with your time and attention.

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much for your opening comments.

Before we proceed to the first six-minute round of questioning, I understand that there have been some discussions amongst the parties about a motion, and there is unanimous consent. I want to turn it over to Mr. Carr to present the said motion.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize to our witnesses. I don't want to take too much time away from the matter at hand, but very quickly, as the sole representative at this table for Manitoba, I want to put forward the following motion in light of the passing of Cathy Merrick, grand chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs.

I've run this by the leaders of all parties around the table, and I'll read it as follows, Mr. Chair:

That, in light of the sudden passing of Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Grand Chief Cathy Merrick on September 6, 2024, the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs offer its deepest condolences to her family, friends and community. The committee acknowledges her tireless efforts and leadership, particularly her advocacy for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, and pledges to honour her dedication to improving the lives of first nations people through its ongoing work.

Furthermore, that the committee report this to the House.

Mr. Chair, because I did not have the chance to present this with 48 hours' notice, I do need unanimous consent in order to move the motion. My hope is that we will receive that, and following that, we can quickly vote to adopt this motion and get back to the important topic at hand vis-à-vis Bill C-61.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carr.

Welcome, Mr. Angus, to our committee today. I want to recognize you and what you might want to add to this.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Certainly this study of water is super important. It's something that the communities I represent struggle with, and the indignities and injustices have to be addressed.

I want to take just a few moments for my colleague, Mr. Carr, on this motion recognizing the loss of Grand Chief Merrick, who was a real trailblazer and someone whose sudden death, I think, shocked everybody. I think these moments, when we come together across party lines to recognize the people, particularly the women, who are leading the way for indigenous justice in this country, are really important.

On behalf of the New Democratic Party, I would like to fully support my colleague's motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Bloc Québécois also wants to support Mr. Carr's motion and highlight Grand Chief Merrick's very noble commitment to a number of important issues for first nations, including the issue of missing and murdered women. She will be remembered for her outspokenness and commitment. We offer our sincere condolences to the first nations, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, and Cathy Merrick's colleagues, friends and family.

Thank you, meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you.

Will this motion be adopted by unanimous consent?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, colleagues.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

With that, we will get into the first round of questioning, starting with the Conservatives.

Mr. Shields, you have six minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the witnesses for being here today in person and via video.

My first question will go to Vice-Chief David Pratt, who's with us via video conference.

In your media release dated December 11, 2023, you stated:

The proposed act announced today would force First Nations into more negotiations with the provincial government, who must agree to any protection plan.

Your chief was also quoted as saying:

Of particular concern in this proposed legislation is a section that allows Canada and Provincial and Territorial governments to make agreements regarding First Nations water by themselves. While it says the Minister must consult with First Nations on these agreements, the law does not require First Nations approval of any agreement as it does the provinces on source water.

Vice-Chief Pratt, do you believe the legislation can guarantee that first nations, the federal government and provinces would have to come to an agreement before any regulations would come into force?

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

First of all, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the honourable member for his question today. I appreciate that.

Definitely one of the biggest concerns we have with this agreement is that when it came to source water we would have to negotiate an agreement with the province or territory we were in. Our position here at the federation since our founding in 1948 has been that first nations have jurisdiction over their lands, resources, territory, etc. We feel that the legislation boxes us in, as we would have more of a policy- rather than a rights-driven position on water. That's one of the biggest concerns we have with it. We definitely have concerns around that wording in the legislation.

As I said earlier, in my opening statement, we are not against any type of federal water legislation. We just want to ensure that, number one, rights are respected, and number two, that it actually ends the boil water advisories and provides adequate resources and funding. This is why I raised the “best efforts” clause inside the legislation, because then successive governments will be allowed to give only their best efforts. That wording leaves it pretty wide open, and it doesn't really guarantee the success of governments. It's not just the current one that will be able to commit to the statutory funding that's required to adequately address the question of clean drinking water within first nations.

I hope that answers your question.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you for that part.

One of the challenges with legislation is to write it vaguely but with enough structure in it. However, this leaves it pretty wide open for the regulations. The federal government can write the regulations, and it doesn't have to get your consent to those regulations.

Is that something that's going to be problematic?

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

Definitely it will be a problem. I will probably be impeached and lose my job if I agree to that. If they're allowed to proceed without our consent and without—what's that legal term?—our acquiescence, there are going to be problems.

I think that on the jurisdictional questions, we do have a precedent already in federal legislation with the act respecting first nations, Inuit and Métis children. I would like to see us go down that same line in recognition of first nations jurisdiction in this country.

I don't think we're asking for too much. We would like that respect. I think it needs to be given in an era of reconciliation and in an era of.... It's 2024. The colonial office closed 150 years ago, so I think it's time to really put first nations in the driver's seat and recognize that jurisdiction.

Also, it puts the pressure on the provinces and territories to negotiate with us in good faith.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

I think that's an excellent comment, when you suggest the co-operation between the three levels of government that we're talking about here. If we don't get consent and agreement with all parties, this legislation is going to be severely limiting in what you would expect it to bring to you.

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

Exactly, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Mr. Paul, one question we might have with this legislation is on protection zones.

Do you have an understanding of what protection zones would mean in this legislation?

[John Paul]

Not really, but I know that if the regulatory regime is written clearly enough, with full inclusion and participation of first nation perspectives, it will protect our interests and bring clarity to whatever part of the legislation. It will be the threads that create the mesh for the legislation, basically, for our communities.