Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 16th, 2024

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes]

Thank you. I could hear it that time.

Through the Chair, it's lovely to see you again as well.

The question is whether there is sufficient strength or whether there is an amendment needed to strengthen the financial supports for access to clean drinking water, and the answer is yes. An amendment to ensure that it is the actual cost of access to clean drinking water would absolutely improve the legislation. However, I don't think that is an impediment to getting started. My hope is that any government, any party that forms the government, will see that it's a necessary commitment in the future and will make that happen. That's possibly naive, but definitely, if there's time and room for an amendment to make that stronger, that would be very appreciated.

Meegwetch.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I want to pay tribute to your commitment as chief of the community of Curve Lake, and to your experience as a mom with the particular situation in Curve Lake.

I would like to ask you if there are other communities like yours that will never be connected to a water system or a waste water treatment plant. I would especially like to know what needs to be done specifically for these communities.

Curve Lake could be an excellent example to highlight here in committee when we talk about communities that have private wells. Think of Kanesatake or Kitigan Zibi, which also have water quality problems.

In short, some communities run out of water on a regular basis or do not have quality drinking water. What is missing from the bill to ensure that there are water supply services and to address situations of water scarcity, water service interruption or poor water quality that some communities may experience?

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes]

I think that's a very complicated question. There were 259 first nations covered by the clean drinking water class action that we started. All of those 259 first nations, those who have accepted the settlement agreement, are entitled to access clean drinking water. That being said, there are over 600 first nations in Canada. There is an absolute real risk that without legislation like this, there would be first nations who would not get access to clean drinking water.

There are many creative solutions that can be applied to ensure that every indigenous individual living on Indian reserve lands has access to clean drinking water, whether that's a community with point-of-use systems, or an overall community water treatment system.

Those solutions need to be found, and every indigenous person in Canada should have an opportunity to have access to clean drinking water.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

This is obviously a complex debate. We often think that this kind of situation happens in rural or very remote northern areas, but that's not the case for Curve Lake.

We are therefore asking the government to make an investment and shoulder its responsibilities. One thing I remember well from our conversation was that the costs can't be passed on to a community like Curve Lake, because there aren't enough people there. For the community, there is no other alternative than a water treatment plant.

What is the federal government's actual responsibility in this matter? In concrete terms, what are your expectations of the federal government? How can Bill C‑61 help or not help first nations?

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes]

What I've seen over the last several years of being involved in the water class action is that the federal government has taken the responsibility for access to clean drinking water for indigenous individuals on Indian reserve lands. That assumption of authority and jurisdiction of many, many decades and hundreds of years ago means that it's a situation that the federal government is required to fix. My fellow witnesses and I are here today to address that need to start a solution, and I fully appreciate that this legislation is a beginning.

It has made commitments to ongoing annual reports and an annual investigation on the effectiveness of the legislative. We are going from a starting point of many first nations communities, most of which in Canada do not have access to clean drinking water, to a place where legislation will enable access to some clean drinking water. This will lead us, as Canadians, to a place where indigenous people can turn on the tap and have confidence they will be healthy after they consume or bathe in that water. I recognize and appreciate that this is a starting point, and, optimistically, it's a great place to start.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

For our last round of questioning in the six-minute round, we'll turn the floor over to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much, and thank you to our witnesses for this very important discussion.

I want to begin with you, Chief Whetung-MacInnes, as a mother. We talk about safe and clean drinking water but also the right to have water that provides the dignity children are entitled to. I represent communities, and I've seen communities that are on the government's list of safe drinking water. They're on there, but they have to pump so much chlorine into the system because the pipes are old. They're dirty, because of so much organics in there that by the time the water reaches the bathtub, it damages the skin in such a way that we have children with horrific levels of black eczema all over them. I remember a beautiful young girl with incredible long hair who told me she didn't like to wash her hair because it burned her scalp.

What do we need to do to make sure that what is considered clean water is actually water that protects and gives the dignity to which mothers, children and families have an innate right?

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes]

I think the answer is fairly simple. We need to provide the actual cost of operating and maintaining water treatment systems. In its simplest form, that's what this comes down to. It's the actual cost of replacing outdated equipment, the actual cost of maintaining equipment and the actual cost of figuring out what's wrong with a system that you have to pump that much chlorine into it. It feels very much that after many decades of living through this like a political issue, we need the federal government to find the financial support to make these things happen.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

On the whole issue of adequate costs, I guess I'm a little cynical. I've been dealing with water issues for a quarter of a century, and I'm always wary of government making a promise. It seems that they download the responsibility to the communities without giving the resources.

Mr. Paul, I'd like to ask you about that. Neskantaga First Nation is in the land of beautiful lakes, yet they've gone 28 years without clean drinking water. If you go to Neskantaga, they have a brand new water treatment plant, but the pipes are all rotted.... I was trying to figure it out. Again, how is it possible that we could build a water treatment plant in a community without clean water, and they still don't have it? They said that it's the same as if you put a new engine into a rotting Ford that's out by the side of the highway and tell people to drive.

What is it going to take to ensure we have adequate funding in place to make sure the whole life cycle of water is covered and the infrastructure is there to guarantee the rights that people have?

[John Paul]

In our perspective from Atlantic Canada, I think one of the important things we saw was taking control over the jurisdiction of water through the creation of our own water authority, which would take on the control and take on the full responsibility for water in all our communities that become part of the water authority.

One of the things in that jurisdiction and control through our water authority is that it's about making that commitment, both financially and on the ground, that safe drinking water is going to be provided to every community from now and 25 and 30 years into the future. That includes from the source to the house and every step in between and adequately figuring out the resourcing and the expertise required to make sure we have equity between our communities and our non-indigenous brothers, basically.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You know, we always see the government making big announcements on water. It doesn't seem like most of the money gets out the door, but it's about ending boiled water advisories. You can end a boiled water advisory. You can stand at the plant and say, “Check it out. It's clean,” and nobody's drinking that water.

You know what? The media can't fly up to places like Cat Lake and Neskantaga to check that the public is being lied to. What's the disconnect between the real costs and what they're promoting?

[John Paul]

I think there's a disconnect in terms of creating that detailed regulatory regime, which does make the connection from the source to the end tap at the house. If those connections are not made clearly and defined in the costing regime, including the regulatory regime that exists.... It's the only way to close all those gaps to actually produce quality water at the other end, whatever the situation, and use available technology and the expertise that is available to do that. There is a cost to that, and that's what you have to pay. You can't get a space shuttle to the moon without actually paying the cost. It's the same with water and waste water.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm running out of time here.

Vice-Chief Pratt, I want to ask about the provinces, because one of the issues is that the communities I represent are postage stamp-sized reserves, so yes, we'll deal with the water there, but if a project goes on or there's damage to the watershed, those communities have to go through enormous legal battles, because the province does not take the issue seriously.

What is the concern of the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations about protecting not just source water but watershed, and protecting the rights of the water that is in your traditional lands?

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

It's definitely a huge concern here in Saskatchewan. Of course, as you know, it's very public and common knowledge that we have had some challenges with the current Moe/Saskatchewan Party government.

We're working our best to try to improve the relationship in this situation, but there are a number of huge outstanding issues around the natural resource transfer agreement with Canada, otherwise known as the Constitution Act, as well as the currently announced Diefenbaker irrigation project. That is going to severely impact the flow of water through the Qu'Appelle, which is where my first nation sits, as well as the inland Cumberland delta at Cumberland House, which is, I believe, the third-largest inland delta in the entire world, with over 160 species of birds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Pratt, I'm sorry. We're running over time. Could you wrap your answer up?

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

It's a huge issue. We will have a lot of challenges with the provinces. I think that's something we all need to be concerned about regarding this. We have to make sure the jurisdiction question is answered.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Angus.

We're now moving into our second round of questioning. I'm noticing that.... For this next round, I'm going to add one minute to all of the interventions rather than have a very abridged third round.

We're starting with Mr. Shields.

I'm going to pass you the floor for six minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

One of the things that I think are important is hearing from a variety of witnesses, especially for the variety of stories we have here. Some may say that we hear the same things, but I think they're all told in different ways.

For all three of you representing today, one thing we have heard about is a lot of requests to appear here. How important is it for us to hear all of the voices wanting to speak on this issue?

Let's start with the top and Mr. Paul.

[John Paul]

I would say it's very important.

However, I also say getting the legislation done is just as important. This has been a discussion that has been going on for quite some time. It needs to get to an end. It's very important that we get this done for our people and communities.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Vice-Chief Pratt.

[Vice-Chief David Pratt]

I think it's very important. When you look at the current challenges around water, it's no secret. It's important that we do this work.

I want to acknowledge the committee as well. If we can get some amendments done, I think we stand a good chance of supporting this within our region. It would take, of course, another mandate. We want some amendments to be done to this, and it's important that those amendments be made. Once those amendments are made, I don't think there will be a problem getting the 74 first nations in Saskatchewan behind this legislation.

Thank you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown.

[John Brown]

I'll turn it over to Chief Whetung.

[Emily Whetung-MacInnes]

Thank you.

Absolutely. I think it's important that you hear these voices. I agree with Chief Paul. It's important that you keep this moving. When we started the class action, we went out to the regional chiefs' bodies and the Assembly of First Nations, asking for support for this. You have a huge amount of support right now to get started.

If it's, “We're going to start here and continue to build on the legislation and make changes in order to get it right,” I think that starting point is significant and important. You've heard from many organizations now, and you have a few more days of hearings and witnesses to get that feedback. If we can incorporate that feedback and move this forward quickly, that's incredibly critical.

Thank you.