Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm very sorry. I really hate to intervene and end on this point, but we're well over time here.

I want to thank Mr. Hanley for his questions.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today, both joining us by video conference and coming from New York, Alberta or Victoria. We really appreciate all of your testimony today and your suggestions.

There were a number of requests for documents to come afterward, so please, if you could provide any of those suggestions, amendments and recommendations in writing to this committee, it would be much appreciated as we go into clause-by-clause consideration in due course, so that we can make this bill the best it can be.

With that, I just want to thank the witnesses again for being here today and for their testimony.

We will briefly suspend as we get ready for the next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm calling this meeting back to order.

We're moving on to our second panel. We have, joining by video conference, Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro from the Mikisew Cree First Nation.

Thank you for joining our committee today. We will start with five minutes of introductory remarks.

The floor is yours.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro, Mikisew Cree First Nation]

Good morning, everyone. Thanks for having me. It's a beautiful morning here in northeastern Alberta.

First of all, I'd like to thank the honourable members for allowing me to speak today.

My name is Billy-Joe Tuccaro. I'm the chief of Mikisew Cree First Nation. Mikisew's territory is located in what you know as northeastern Alberta. Our land includes the Peace-Athabasca delta and Wood Buffalo National Park, a UNESCO world heritage site. This is where our people have lived since time immemorial, where the Peace and Athabasca rivers meet and eventually enter Lake Athabasca.

Many of you know Mikisew because we are downstream from the Athabasca oil sands or because we have been raising alarm bells about our community's cancer rates, which we believe are coming from the fish we eat, the water we drink and the medicines we harvest. I have spoken at a committee in the past for Imperial Kearl and the freshwater study. I explained how, for our people, water is boss. I explained how our women have jurisdiction over water, and because they were excluded from treaty-making, we never treatied our water. The water in Treaty 8 is, in your words, “unsurrendered”.

Today, I should be speaking to you about our existing jurisdiction and honouring the treaty. Instead, I'm here to talk to you about your legislation, Bill C-61, and what it will impose on us.

In a nutshell, Bill C-61 may sound better than the Indian Act, but it does the same thing. We are asking for an end to this colonization through legislation. Please reject Bill C-61.

To support this request, I will raise four issues.

First and foremost, I am here to remind you about our treaty. The treaty is why we are all here today. Our ancestors agreed to share the land with the Crown. No legislation can supersede this promise.

Second, I would like to talk about what Bill C-61 calls “source water”. It is absurd to think that a federal regulation can displace the province's full control over our water, for example in the granting of water licences to withdraw and release industrial waste water. Why is the province in the driver's seat? Nowhere in Canada's Constitution does it say the province has all jurisdiction over water. I am told that Alberta's jurisdiction has evolved from powers over property rights and local works. Meanwhile, the Constitution says that the federal government has jurisdiction over fisheries and navigable waters, yet Canada has failed us by surrendering regulatory control over source water to Alberta.

By looking at the oil sands, I can explain this problem. The tailings ponds are the largest industrial waste site in the world. We have learned from operators' reports submitted to the Alberta Energy Regulator that tailings toxins are seeping into the muskeg, groundwater and rivers, including the Athabasca River, where our drinking water comes from. Canada and Alberta know about this. The tailings contain at least 1.4 trillion litres of toxic fluid. Alberta and Canada intend to treat and release much of these tailings into the Athabasca River, which is totally uncalled for.

Bill C-61 won't do a single thing to stop the treatment and release of toxins into our so-called source water, so again, let's go back to treaty, the natural resources transfer acts and the Constitution. None of that gave Canada or Alberta jurisdiction to do what they are doing with our water.

Third, where is the human right to water? The UN special rapporteur on the human rights to safe drinking water called on Canada in April to constitutionally recognize this internationally protected right. Let's do that instead of Bill C-61.

I might also add, where I live in Fort Chipewyan, it's now $30 for a flat of water. I was just recently down south and I purchased a flat of water for $4.99.

Fourth, what about our laws? Bill C-61 claims to recognize our self-government. This bill does no such thing. If we decide to pass a law under Bill C-61, the minister's regulations will become our law on reserve. This is one reason we say Bill C-61 is like the Indian Act. It imposes federal law on us, disguised as a promise of self-government.

We will not let this happen again.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Chief Tuccaro.

We will begin with the one and only round of questioning, starting with the Conservative Party for six minutes. I believe it's Mr. Shields.

I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today. I really appreciate hearing from you and being part of this discussion about Bill C-61.

One thing that you've submitted is a letter from back in June where you took note of Minister Hajdu's statements in December introducing a bill whereby she wrongly used your nation's experience without consent or having consulted your nation through your authorized representatives on this legislation. I think consultation is something I've asked about before. You're even objecting to your name being used by the minister because you didn't feel that she had the right to use it and had no consent.

Is this some of the anger that I'm obviously seeing in what you believe about this legislation and how you have been misrepresented in this process?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I'd like to mention that I became the chief on October 8, 2022. I can say that to the current time, there has been absolutely no consultation in regard to this bill that's being rammed down our throats. I've also done my research. Prior to my becoming the chief, there was no consultation in regard to this bill.

Therefore, yes, I do take offence to that. If people are going to say they have consulted with Mikisew, I would appreciate having that conversation and at least consult back and forth and have our concerns heard.

Consulting with AFN, any tribal nations or anybody else does not speak for Mikisew. Through the treaty, we have the right to be consulted nation to nation. I can say that there has been absolutely no consultation in regard to that, so I do take offence to that.

Thank you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You have made a number of statements about Bill C-61 and I think you're pretty clear on this. You think this piece of legislation should just be dropped. You're replacing it completely with statements that you've made about other documents, like the United Nations document.

Is that the way you see that it would be best to go forward? Is it to just absolutely drop this piece of legislation and replace it with something totally different?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Yes. People have to understand where we're situated in northeastern Alberta. People have to remember we're situated downstream from oil sands. That's the reason.... This bill might work for the rest of Canada, but we know for a fact that Alberta will always have its hands in the bucket with regard to water and with regard to what they need to do to develop the resources.

That's the reason I'm saying that we are in total opposition to this bill. We know for a fact.... I know I'm going to eventually be questioned about amendments to this and what amendments would work. There are absolutely none, because we know for a fact that once we give an inch, they take the whole land. I'm not even going to say a mile. They take the whole land.

Thank you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I think one of the things you referred to in your documentation was that this would basically municipalize you in the sense of the process. I'm familiar with the municipal structure, and if we're looking for money for infrastructure, water, sewer and the rest of it, we deal with the federal government, looking for money. Do you think that's where you'll be placed under this legislation? Do you think you'll be just like a municipal government?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Yes, we are thinking that. That's what's going to happen, because we know what the ultimate plan is for Canada. It's to municipalize all reserves. That's the reason why we, as treaty people, are in total opposition to this bill.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

If you were to have the ability.... Let's say you had your wish granted to drop Bill C-61. What kind of process do you see working as far as consultation is concerned? What would work that you believe hasn't occurred before and needs to occur?

If you throw out Bill C-61 and you get your wish, what would the process look like for you?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

It would be to have that conversation. That's what consultation is about, to see what has worked, what hasn't and what are the possible solutions moving forward in regard to it.

First of all, if you're going to ask me about consultation, I truly believe there should be conversation instead of just speaking to other organizations and thinking that's good enough as consultation in regard to the Mikisew people.

People have to remember that in the oil sands region my people make up about half of the whole population in this whole region. We're not only situated in Fort Chipewyan; we're situated throughout.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Then, when there are over 600 nations in the territory of what's called Canada, how do we feasibly do that kind of consultation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

It's going to have to be a very short answer.

Make it a very short answer, Mr. Tuccaro.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

It's to speak with every nation individually. Don't go to any organization and figure that's your guy's answer of getting what you need to get your approval.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Shields.

Moving to our next questioner, we have Mr. McLeod for six minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the chief for joining us.

I live in the community of Fort Providence in the Northwest Territories. We're the first community on the Mackenzie River, and we share a lot of your concerns. For years, we were very worried about water quality, because every project in Alberta and B.C. affects us. We're downstream, just as you are. Every farm that dumps into the river or takes water from the river, every sawmill.... The oil sands are something you mentioned, and they concern us also. Spills are happening and we're not being informed.

We have voiced concerns for years and years, but now we're also concerned about the quantity of water. The Site C dam has come on stream. It's holding back water and will be holding back water for the next four months. This is on top of the drought conditions that we're experiencing in the Northwest Territories and B.C. and Alberta.

Even though everybody's telling us that it's not going to impact us, you can come to my community and you can see all the rocks sticking out of the Mackenzie River, one of our biggest rivers in the country. Waterfalls are going dry; they're just trickling now. There are no more majestic falls in and around my community.

All these things are happening and nobody's talking to us in the Northwest Territories. The indigenous governments have been saying for years they have no avenue for a voice.

Because you're saying that the system is not working as it's designed now, and the leaders in my communities are also saying the same thing, I wanted to know how closely you work with communities further downstream in the Northwest Territories.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

I can speak about that specific area. We share the same concerns as you guys, all the way up.

I'll give you a bit of history first, in regard to the last few years here.

In 2020, when the water levels came up, we were able to access all of our traditional territories. Fast-forward four years.... No, it was last year. In 2023, I had one of my own council members try to access her traditional territory. She was stuck on Lake Mamawi for 24 hours. She had to be rescued because she was high and dry on a sandbar. This year, too, when the conditions worsened, the water was drying up. We sent a letter to BC Hydro and voiced our concern. They said it was absolutely nothing: “That's just how it is when drought conditions are happening.” There's no way the water can dry up that quickly. That's the reason why we're very concerned now. They sent us the memo about a month and a half ago. They're going to be taking the water for the next four months. It's concerning. What's going to happen next spring?

In regard to working with the other nations, we speak with them about the water levels and how we can access water now. There are even talks now of having an all-weather, year-round road because we know we cannot access anything. That's the reason why the table has been set to have these conversations.

We understand there are people getting sick to the north of us, as well. They are having the same concerns. I can say this: As one of the communities situated downstream from the oil sands, we're very concerned for everybody else beyond us. I'm 47 years old. I don't want us to be the ones who were used as collateral damage in regard to profit over people.

That's the reason, I guess, why we've dug our feet in the sand. We're sick of it now. I—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'm going to interrupt you, because I want to ask one more question.

What you're saying is that the system isn't working. The leaders in your communities are saying it. When it comes to oversight and resources for operating and maintaining water systems, do you think a national, first nations-led water authority could lead to better outcomes?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Once again, if we do that, we're taking the government's responsibility away. I truly believe that, if we're going to do something, it should be something like what you're requesting. First nations can lead something throughout Canada, but it has to be in partnership. It has to be a true partnership, too, with the provinces and Canada. It can't just be them giving us the funding or whatever, then pushing us aside and that's it. You have to remember—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Chief.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Hold on.

You also have to remember that, where I'm situated downstream, our concerns are very different from those of people everywhere else.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much. I apologize for having to cut you off. We are over time.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Lemire, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Tuccaro, thank you for joining us and informing us of the impact of this situation in your area.

While listening to your opening remarks, I was particularly struck by your comments regarding the proximity of the oil sands and the potential impact on the resource. In my view, source water protection is a key factor.

You're opposed to the bill before us. However, it's our duty as parliamentarians to suggest ways to improve the bill. Subsection 19(2) of the bill doesn't seem to provide for source water protection. As a result, first nations wouldn't be able to draft legislation to protect source water on or near their ancestral land. I think that we should ensure that first nations have the power to do so. We could strengthen certain articles to that effect.

Do you think that it would be appropriate to add a protection zone, established by first nations, and to ensure better coordination in order to hold companies—such as the oil sands operators in your area—liable if they pollute the resource or if the resource is no longer usable? In this case, the polluter would also be held liable. What do you think about this?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Again, you mentioned amendments. I truly believe that the bill should just be struck, but with regard to the oil sands....

Could you repeat the last part of the question?