Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 120 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

As always, I want to acknowledge that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples and express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

We do have a witness who will join us shortly. They are having some technical issues, but I wanted to make sure we got started so we don't waste any more time.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, wastewater and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

I want to welcome our witnesses who are both here today in person and joining us by video conference.

Welcome, Dr. Joss Reimer, president, Canadian Medical Association.

From the Water Movement, we have Candace Cook, Deon Hassler, Bita Malekian and Desmond Mitchell, all joining by video conference.

Very shortly, we will have Mr. James Hotchkies from the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers.

We'll start off with five minutes for introductory remarks for each of the witnesses.

We'll start with Dr. Reimer. The floor is yours for five minutes, please.

[Dr. Joss Reimer, President, Canadian Medical Association]

Thank you, Chair.

My name is Dr. Joss Reimer. As president of the Canadian Medical Association, the CMA, I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak about the direct link between water and health.

As a public health physician, I was trained in the topic of water quality and am very familiar with the various factors that can make water unsafe.

Canada holds much of the world's fresh water. It is our responsibility to protect this critical resource for future generations. The CMA is committed to working in partnership and reciprocity with indigenous peoples to advance reconciliation in health care.

Indigenous health is intrinsically linked to the health of the land and water. Without protecting remaining clean water sources, we risk environmental damage and loss of life.

Water insecurity is a matter of life and death for many indigenous communities. In addition to the infectious risks of unsafe water, long-term drinking water advisories have been linked to higher suicide rates in first nations communities, exposing the lethal cost of inaction.

“Water is life” is a truth that must guide us to protect indigenous rights and this sacred resource. It's a plea for action. We must protect these communities to ensure that everyone thrives and not just survives.

We look to the government to invest in health priorities identified by indigenous organizations to achieve measurable, ongoing improvements in health and wellness. We must listen to the voices of indigenous communities calling for careful reconsideration of its provision to ensure self-determined maintenance of essential drinking water and waste-water infrastructure.

The CMA supports the amendments raised by chiefs and first nations, specifically acknowledging that access to drinking water as a fundamental human right, and we urge the swift passage of Bill C-61.

Chair, the CMA has long believed that health is a basic human right. Ensuring safe and sufficient drinking water is essential to better health and wellness. We rarely learn about the toxicity of source water in medical school, but those who work in indigenous communities see the impact first-hand. As a public health physician, I myself have issued many temporary boil water advisories in my career. Seeing the disruption that a short-term advisory can have on the daily lives of community members and businesses makes it all the more striking to consider that this is a daily reality for many indigenous communities.

Everyone in Canada, including those who live in remote and indigenous communities, should have the same confidence in the quality of their water supply as those who are living here in Ottawa. It is not lost on me that we are here in this space with clear, clean drinking water in front of us today.

We want families, no matter where they live, to be able to fill their glasses with potable water, free from toxins. Everyone should be able to cook with water that enriches their health and does not endanger it. They should be without fear of exposure to harmful contaminants. Who shouldn't be able to teach their children that water is a source of life and not a potential hazard?

Representing the physicians of Canada, the CMA strives to build sustainable health care systems inclusive of indigenous knowledge. We call on governments to prioritize and invest in policies that address the determinants of health, including the historical and ongoing impacts of colonization, income, education, employment, food security and, indeed, safe water.

Addressing water security and climate resiliency is also key to closing the health disparities between indigenous and non-indigenous communities. Protecting water security goes hand in hand with confronting climate change. It's a crisis that strikes indigenous communities hardest and threatens their way of life. The factors that drive climate change and poor health are closely connected.

Indigenous peoples face a dire lack of health services, particularly in remote communities, and they experience anti-indigenous racism in our health systems. They experience a lack of cultural safety and a disregard for indigenous health and healing models.

In conclusion, Bill C-61 is a step toward ensuring clean water and better health outcomes for all. We support the legislation's commitment to establishing safe water infrastructure in, on and under first nations lands, in co-operation with first nations and in a way that is consistent with Canada's obligations to first nations. Improving health outcomes for indigenous peoples must start with indigenous voices leading the way.

I thank you for your time today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Dr. Reimer.

We're just going to have a very brief suspension here as we get one of our witnesses connected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Hotchkies, we are just in the middle of doing the opening remarks. I'll turn it over to you next.

You have five minutes to deliver opening remarks.

[James Hotchkies, Professional Engineer, Ontario Society of Professional Engineers]

Okay. That sounds good.

As articulated in UN sustainable development goal number 6, access to safe water, sanitation and hygiene is the most basic human need for health and well-being.

Now that we're over two decades into the 21st century, it's completely unacceptable for any community in Canada to have inadequate access to safe and affordable drinking water or to safely managed sanitation.

Effective management and ready access to safe water supply and sanitation is essential not only to health but also to poverty reduction, food security, peace and human rights, ecosystems and education, yet today, many first nations communities across Canada have lived under long-term boil water advisories for many decades.

This bill would recognize the first nations' stewardship over their own water resources and infrastructure and improve the potential to develop the most appropriate and effective infrastructure models and solutions for their communities.

While Canada has well-developed infrastructure across the country, the models and solutions that have been successfully deployed in Toronto or Vancouver or even in small towns throughout Alberta or Quebec may not be the best options for first nations communities in northern Manitoba or even those along the St. Lawrence. In fact, as Canada tries to accommodate major population growth in peri-urban or rural communities, the infrastructure models developed in the early part of the 20th century may no longer be the most appropriate solutions. Increasingly around the world, decentralized solutions that reflect the needs and capabilities of local communities are gaining traction.

It's positive to see the responsibility for the management of resources and services being localized to first nations communities. Local influence can enhance the adoption of the most appropriate solutions for that specific community and also accelerate the adoption of better and more advanced technologies and processes. Without question, as we try to embrace sustainability in a circular economy, decentralized solutions that reflect the unique nature of an application or community may offer the most effective options for managing this essential resource.

However, Bill C-61 doesn't come without its complexities. The management of water resources poses significant transboundary issues, both on the quality of water entering the community from an external source and on the effluent that may leave the community and migrate to adjacent sites. A strong consultative framework will be required to navigate through these issues and ensure that the health and safety of all Canadians are of paramount concern.

Many existing water and waste-water regulations, standards, operating practices and treatment processes have been developed over many decades, and often from the perspective of larger centralized utility models. These may not be the most effective or appropriate options for small communities that are often remote.

Solutions for many of these applications will have to recognize potential obstacles, from the lack of readily available expertise or spare parts to power supply issues and the need for location-specific training and maintenance resources. Encouraging the development of solutions that reflect and embrace the needs and interests of smaller localized populations, such as first nations communities, could contribute significantly to the goals of sustainability and circularity.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hotchkies.

Next up, we will be turning the microphone over to Water Movement. I'm not sure who will be speaking on behalf of the organization, but collectively, you will have five minutes to deliver opening remarks.

[Desmond Mitchell, Utilities Manager, Water Movement]

I'll take this one on.

I was hoping for some extra time because one of our colleagues couldn't speak today, so I think I can expand a little further to help the cause, if that's all right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Sure. You have five minutes, and then there will be opportunities for the members of the committee to ask questions in rounds afterwards.

[Desmond Mitchell]

Good morning, members of the committee. My name is Desmond Mitchell, and I am grateful for the opportunity to speak with you today.

I'm a certified water operator with over 15 years of practical experience in working in and managing water utility systems. I had the privilege of establishing a utilities department for Tsuut’ina Nation, focusing on capacity building and skill development within the community.

Additionally, I collaborate with various organizations, including Water Movement; NIWAC, the National Indigenous Water Advisory Committee; and TSAG, the Technical Services Advisory Group. My work, along with others, has extended to a variety of first nations water initiatives across Canada.

Today I am here to voice my concerns about Bill C-61 from an operational standpoint.

I want to make one thing clear from the start: As someone who worked at many levels of water systems operations, I am deeply concerned about the practical impact this bill will have, particularly for water operators and public works staff. Quite simply, the operational foundation in many first nations communities is not yet ready. The reality is that many first nations communities do not have the technical capacity to manage their water systems in the way that this bill assumes. Throughout Water Movement, we have consistently demonstrated that there is a severe lack of support for water operators in first nations communities. Many operators work in under-resourced environments, often without access to ongoing training, mentorship or tools they need to do their jobs effectively.

Becoming a certified water operator is not something that happens overnight. It requires years of training, experience and support. It also requires a fully functional system in place, a support network that includes public works staff, proper infrastructure and access to professional development. Developing a capable and self-sufficient utility or public works department takes decades, especially when starting from a lower operational baseline.

The biggest concern I have with Bill C-61 is the liability it places on first nations, especially when so many communities are already struggling to retain dedicated and qualified operators. Water systems are complex, and they require not just skilled operators but an entire public works team that is properly trained, well-supported and fully staffed. Without a qualified and stable team in place, this bill is essentially a disaster waiting to happen. When water systems fail, it's the community that suffers, not just in terms of health risks but also in legal and financial consequences. By shifting responsibilities onto first nations without ensuring the proper operational support is already in place, this bill risks creating situations in which first nations are held liable for system failures that they simply don't have the capacity to prevent or manage. I also note that first nations will be liable for systems that have been diminished by lack of funding in previous years.

In its current form, the bill assumes that first nations can meet these new responsibilities, but the reality is that many communities are not equipped to take on the added burden. If there aren't enough certified operators or if the public works teams are stretched too thin, we'll see serious consequences. Infrastructure will fail, water quality could drop, and ultimately it'll be the first nation that faces the fallout—legally, financially and operationally. Simply put, without the proper support for retaining qualified operators and building robust public works teams, this bill is setting many communities up for failure.

Another major concern is that the consultation process for this bill largely overlooked the voices of those who are most affected: the water operators and public works staff who are responsible for the day-to-day management. We are the people who deal directly with the challenges of aging infrastructure, a lack of resources and gaps in operational support. We are the ones who understand what it takes to run water systems, because we do it every day. By not consulting directly with the water operators and public works teams, this bill overlooks the operational reality that many first nations are not prepared to handle.

I believe Bill C-61 needs to be reconsidered, with a focus on the operational foundation of first nations water systems.

This solution cannot be a top-down approach. It needs to start with the people on the ground, such as operators, public works staff and the departments tasked with managing these critical systems.

Before moving forward with strict timelines and standards, we need to focus on capacity building. My recommendations for this include the following—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Mitchell, I'm afraid the time has elapsed.

There will be opportunities for the members to ask questions. I hate to interrupt you here, but we do need to get on to the first round of questioning. You can hold that thought until the questions come up.

[Desmond Mitchell]

Would you like me to do the conclusion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Wrap it up very quickly, because we're already over time here.

[Desmond Mitchell]

In closing, I want to emphasize that while Bill C-61 is well intentioned, it overlooks the most critical element of water management, which is the people who operate the systems. Without proper support, training and infrastructure, many first nations simply won't be able to meet the standards set by this bill.

We must address the foundational issues before imposing new regulations and guidelines.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mitchell.

With that, we're going to start our first round of questioning, which is the six-minute round, starting with Mr. Melillo from the Conservative Party.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know your job is a tough one sometimes to keep us on schedule here. Thank you for that.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Mitchell, I believe you were about to go into a few recommendations. I'd like to give you the opportunity to share those recommendations with us.

[Desmond Mitchell]

Certainly. Thank you.

My recommendations for this include the following.

First is investing in operator training and development and ensuring that every first nation has access to qualified and certified operators.

Second is providing ongoing support for retention and professional growth, because operators need not just initial training but also long-term support to remain effective.

Third is focusing on infrastructure improvements and maintenance, as many systems are operating with outdated or failing equipment.

Fourth is engaging frontline workers in the conversation. We are the ones who know what it will take to make these systems run.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much for that. It's very much appreciated.

I wanted to ask you a lot of questions that I think you already touched on in your opening remarks, but maybe I'll just dig into it a little bit more.

Some of the concerns we've heard throughout this process at the committee and in meetings outside is that there is a lot that this bill leaves to future regulation. The teeth and the follow-through are perhaps things that are still to be determined going forward. I think that is the case when it comes to ensuring that there are water operators who are trained and that the systems are built to withstand conditions and all of those things.

You talked a bit about the process to become a trained operator. Could you go a bit further into detail with that? Is there a general timeline that it takes? What are the complexities for that for someone living on a first nation versus outside of a first nation?

[Desmond Mitchell]

Oh, man, this is my bread and butter.

There are two main paths you can take to become an operator. I call one the school of hard knocks. That's when you work with a first nation or municipality for a year. After that year, I, as a manager, can get you enrolled in courses and we can start that path to write your certification exam.

It's important to note that there are four different disciplines. They are water treatment, water distribution, wastewater collection and wastewater treatment.

A successful candidate—a real go-getter—can be a certified operator through the path of hard knocks in about a year and a half. I've never seen it done; it's closer to two.

There's another path you can take. I'm in Alberta, so I'm going to use NAIT and SAIT as examples.

You go to school for a year. They put you in a placement. You come out, you write your exam and then you get certified. It still takes about a year. This is difficult for remote communities.

Even option one is difficult for remote communities. Many of the operators that I have brought up from Tsuut'ina do better in a hands-on situation. I even have my own personal belief that the school of hard knocks builds a better operator for a small system. It's constant support, constant training and constant mentorship.

As a manager, I spend two-thirds of my time in the field teaching my young operators.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it.

You also mentioned in your remarks, if I heard you correctly, that the operators on first nations, particularly in remote communities, are operating without access to appropriate resources.

Can you, again, go into a bit more detail on what specific resources are available outside of a first nation that are not available in that first nation?

[Desmond Mitchell]

There are many. Some places are so remote and so far up north that they have limited shovels to work with. If they break something as simple as a shovel or a pick, it could take a week to get to them. Let's think about that. That's mind-boggling.

Some resources are financial. I'm very fortunate with Tsuut'ina Nation. We're nestled right on the edge of Calgary. I'm a lucky one. If I break a part or if a piece of chemical injection tubing breaks, I could call up one of 10 contractors or businesses and tell them I'm sending an operator to grab these parts. That's not the case for many first nations operators. Something as simple as chemical injection tubing or fittings can become a major obstacle, and it's not necessarily because of poor planning; it's more that an operator comes in on the weekend and fixes a part here, and we're good to go. We like to build these systems to be robust, so before the next replacement part can come in, the same part breaks on another piece of equipment. It has happened time and time again.

Financial is one area and resources are another, and there is also just equipment overall.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I think I have time for a very quick question, so I'll stick with you, Mr. Mitchell. I really appreciate what you've been sharing so far.

You also mentioned retention as one of your important recommendations. Has the government been putting any resources, or appropriate resources, at this point, into retention? Can you describe what the current situation is, in your view?

[Desmond Mitchell]

The TSAG, the Technical Services Advisory Group, does a really good job at building up operators. They do the best they can. A big problem for retention is within the communities themselves. I'm not sure if you're a small-town boy, but I am. Sometimes the politics within the small community you're raised in affect you. Sometimes it's the wrong last name. Sometimes it's who you're related to. You get pushed out.

I often refer to being an operator as working in the shadows. We do not get pats on the back. We really serve the community in a selfless manner until something goes wrong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Mitchell, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up. We're over time here again.

[Desmond Mitchell]

[Inaudible—Editor] reasons.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

With that, we're going to move to our second questioner.

Mr. Hanley, you have six minutes.