Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Thank you for the question.

It's clear that protection zones, source waters and adjacent waters are not on reserve. We need to define those and also understand who has jurisdiction over those waters. I'm not sure this is something a bill of Parliament can do. If this is not within the committee's and Parliament's purview, maybe protection zones, adjacent waters and source waters should be somewhere else.

It also brings up a more existential question: What is the role of the Canada water agency? This government is also creating a Canada water agency that is meant to solve some of those issues. Where there are competing interests, or where there are interests across competing jurisdictions—provincial, territorial, federal and first nations—we'll have the Canada water agency to sort out some of those. That agency is not listed in this legislation, so it feels like one hand of the government is doing something here, and another hand is doing something there.

Again, from my perspective—it's why I'm interested in this—I have to say that, when you want agricultural development, mining development, oil and gas development and manufacturing development, as one of the chiefs mentioned, but you don't have clarity over this, you don't know who's going to be able to provide the permit. You don't know what the jurisdiction is or what laws are going to be where. One first nation may even have one law and a different first nation may have another law further upstream. It causes anxiety, I think, on the part of industry when government is moving ahead with legislation but has not considered the consequences of it yet.

This is not to take away from first nations' indigenous rights. It's to ask, what can this committee and this legislation accomplish with their jurisdictions?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Some indigenous communities are asking for more flexibility, while others seem to have issues with it.

Could you give us your definition of a protection zone?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

I don't have the expertise to provide that. I hope there are government lawyers, maybe in ECCC, who could further define what they mean by a protection zone.

However, I have to emphasize that it is important for everyone to know what we're all thinking about as a protection zone before we pass this law saying that first nations can have laws over protection zones.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do you know what happens in situations where different provinces are affected? In Quebec, we talk more about protected areas. There's also the Alberta‑Saskatchewan border situation.

How can we ensure greater consistency in the legislation, given that water falls more under provincial jurisdiction?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Again, I guess that would be something for the Canada water agency to try to determine. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans probably already has some guidelines. I think making sure we're consistent across different acts and legislation, provincially and federally....

I know that's hard work. I know this bill is the result of a lawsuit and you have to put something out there. You have to do something. Trying to be more specific in defining “First Nation lands” on reserve would solve some of those issues. Maybe the protection zone thing is for something larger, like the Canada water agency.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In many cases, when commissions are set up to clarify this type of situation, the first nations say that their voice isn't heard.

How can we ensure that the first nations' voice is heard and that they play a greater role in these commissions?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

That's a great question.

I'm sure there's no silver bullet and no easy answer. Different nations have different capacity.

In a lot of cases, capacity funding for people to engage—to pay for their own lawyers and have their own legal representation—is one good way of doing that.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It's particularly important to clarify our legislation if the solutions involve counsel or legal matters.

I would like you to talk about corporate social responsibility.

How can we ensure that companies respect the rights of the first nations, especially when it comes to shared waterways? How can we ensure that they take responsibility in the event of a spill, for example? How responsible are these companies for water quality?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Of course, it varies by project, but they would have to apply to get a permit for the water they're going to use, or the effluent they're going to put back in downstream. What will the quality of that water be once it goes back in? The Government of Canada and the provincial governments already control that. Again, if first nations are also going to have laws and be applying permits.... These all work together. It is known that it's not, you know.... It's tripling the layers of bureaucracy.

We all want the same outcomes. We all want clean water. We all want it to be up to standard. However, I think it's about articulating very clearly what that standard is. Then industry can decide whether it's economic for them to meet it, and whether or not to go ahead with a project.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

We are going to the NDP next. Ms. Ashton has six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

As we were getting ready for the second panel, I happened to get a notification through Facebook that TCN, Chief Beardy's community, had to cancel school today because the water had to be shut off to the school. Kids are being impacted once more as a result of this insecurity when it comes to water in TCN, not to mention the desperate need for a new school that I'm sure Chief Beardy could speak about.

I'm wondering, Chief Beardy, if you could share with us just how destructive it's been to not have clean running water for years, and the domino effect. Here we are hearing about the schools shutting down. You talked about people getting sick as a result of federal negligence. Can you share with us just how difficult that has been?

[Chief Taralee Beardy]

Good afternoon.

I want to say that it has impacted our people's health and mental health and overall community wellness.

Like you mentioned, we have aging infrastructure. We often have water breaks. Today, we have a water break in our community affecting the whole school and community now. Kids have to stay home and the water line has to be fixed. Again, our own dollars don't even cover the ongoing repairs needed year after year, because we always have water breaks in the community. As I said, we have aging infrastructure.

We have fire hydrants that don't work properly. We have some fire hydrants that don't even have access to water. When we had a fire, I think, in February 2022, we didn't have an adequate water supply. Our water truck was down, so a whole apartment complex burned down. It was an eight-unit apartment, but we had 10 families living in there. They were all displaced.

Water has impacted the overall health of our people mentally. I heard the other chief mention diabetes and home dialysis. We're also having the same issue. We have a high death rate due to diabetes, and people can't do home dialysis. We just lost a mother who had five children and two grandchildren. She died from complications due to diabetes, and she was a young mother. We are impacted in so many ways.

Thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for sharing that very difficult time, Chief Beardy, and I know our thoughts are with the Ouskan family and everyone who is impacted.

I quickly would like to go to you, and then have a moment to hear from witnesses from Onion Lake. How important is it, Chief Beardy, for Canada to recognize inherent rights and treaty rights when it comes to clean water?

[Chief Taralee Beardy]

If you think about Canada, you know, it is a very rich country. However, our first nations people are still suffering. We're still at the bottom of the barrel when we should be thriving. We should have homes. We should have clean drinking water for each home. We should have infrastructure for water, but that's not happening at all. We're at the bottom of the barrel.

Our people are suffering, and there are times when we don't even have drinking water in our homes for days, especially for people who have water tanks, because we just don't have the resources to make sure that every house that has a water tank can be filled in an adequate time. There are days at a time when our people are suffering with no water to even wash, clean or cook. We even run out of bottled water, so our people are suffering. That's not right in a country like Canada.

Thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I'll move quickly to witnesses from Onion Lake.

[Chief Henry Lewis]

Thank you very much.

I'm very happy that you asked that question because inherent rights allude to what we had before treaty. Treaty rights negotiations were afterwards, but inherent rights were the ones that we had prior.

I'd like to capitalize on a question. I flew 2,000 miles to be here, and I'd like to stress the importance of the relationship to water as a pipe carrier. I'm a lodge holder, and also, you know, we have a special relationship with water.

As a child, 68 years ago, I just about drowned. The water spirit just about took my life, and I was given a second chance in life. From that day on, I made an obligation to the thunder spirit that I'd speak on his behalf, and that's very important to note here. Nobody stresses the importance of our special sacred relationship with water. We were all in our mom's womb in the sacred water for nine months. Nine months—think about that. No human being with two legs can ever legislate water, never.

That's the spiritual component of it. I came on strong with that, and I'm not going to apologize for that because, you know, the oath I made to the higher power was that I'd work for all of God's creation under natural laws.

We are a sovereign nation when it comes to regulations. We have our own laws, and we put our regulations under our own laws. That's the sovereign position I'm presenting today.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton, for your line of questioning.

Thank you to our witnesses here today, both in the first panel and in the second.

Unfortunately, we are out of time for this committee meeting, but if you have anything additional to submit, you can do so in writing and the committee will consider that in this study as we move forward.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much everyone. The meeting is adjourned.