Evidence of meeting #122 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-61.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Cody Diabo  Mohawk Council of Kahnawake
Sherri-Lyn Hill  Six Nations of the Grand River
Kelly Carter  Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Wildlife Federation
Greg Frazer  Councillor, Six Nations of the Grand River
Katie Spillane  Legal Counsel, Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

Thank you.

I think it's particularly important to ask that question because, when this bill was first introduced, it was touted as being “codeveloped”. When I asked questions about how many first nations would be impacted and how many were engaged, the numbers were quite stark.

I'm going to move to another issue related to clause 26 and clause 27 of the bill because they are very different from each other. I want to get your understanding, Chief Sherri-Lyn, Kelly or Greg.

Do you understand what clause 26 is regarding? The minister “must ensure” access to clean and safe drinking water is how the clause should read, not that the minister will “make best efforts” regarding access to clean and safe drinking water.

4:20 p.m.

Six Nations of the Grand River

Chief Sherri-Lyn Hill

I'm going to ask Councillor Greg Frazer to respond.

4:20 p.m.

Councillor, Six Nations of the Grand River

Dr. Greg Frazer

Yes. That popped up several times, of course—the consultation and co-operation part of it.

As the chief mentioned earlier, in her opening statement, often it lacks.... To Chief Diabo's point about being initially consulted, it doesn't happen. It happens like you said. The other thing, too, regarding consultation and co-operation—

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Chair, I am sorry to interrupt the witness, but his microphone was not on when he started speaking, so the interpreter could not translate what he said.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

I hate to interrupt here. We're having an issue with—

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Could the witness repeat the last three sentences of his answer, please?

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Sure.

Could the witness repeat the last three phrases? I've paused the time.

4:25 p.m.

Councillor, Six Nations of the Grand River

Dr. Greg Frazer

Is my mic on now? Is everything okay?

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Yes.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

It's that little red light there.

4:25 p.m.

Councillor, Six Nations of the Grand River

Dr. Greg Frazer

Going back to the wording on the consultation and co-operation, we see that often. Asking the minister to be making those decisions at this point always lacks the accommodation part—the commitment part. We always see the initial part, but we don't see the emphasis on the accommodation part.

That's something that's often bothered us.

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

Thank you.

I'll follow up with you, Greg, on clause 27. To me, it is a very different clause that we heard questioning about. I'd like to get your understanding.

Section 27 speaks to consultations “in respect of a framework for assessing needs”, which to me is very different from clause 26. Clause 26 talks about “access to clean and safe drinking water”, whereas consultation in clause 27 talks about “a framework for assessing needs”.

Is that your understanding as well?

4:25 p.m.

Councillor, Six Nations of the Grand River

Dr. Greg Frazer

Yes, but often that word “framework” is a bit of a concern to us. Framework means that he's building a framework...to suit whose needs?

As first nations, are we building the framework, or is the minister building the framework? That's what has to be clear. The framework has to be built by first nations, not by outside governing bodies.

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

Thank you so much.

I wanted to then ask both witnesses about the lack of direction given in this bill about protection zones.

The way that I understand this bill is that jurisdiction to first nations regarding source water would not happen until the protection zone negotiations happen at a later date. This lack of clarity is what I am concerned about because then your first nations would have to either consult or work with provinces or municipalities. You would have to negotiate with another level of government before that protection zone negotiation happens.

I wonder if maybe both of you could respond to your concerns regarding that lack of clarity.

4:25 p.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Grand Chief Cody Diabo

I'll jump in there.

Being in the province of Quebec causes a huge concern, because we're always in a battle with the province in terms of jurisdiction recognition. I foresee it becoming a major issue down the road.

We see it on other files as well in terms of health care and other sectors, when it comes to having to deal with the province. I hate using the words “recognition of jurisdictions” because in my view, this whole area is unceded territory of the Kanienkehaka since time immemorial. We've never ceded it, but we have to now negotiate in terms of when these protection zones come into effect. We're limited to our reserve lands as opposed to our traditional lands.

It will definitely be an issue.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout. I'm afraid I'm going to have to interject at this point, as the time has elapsed.

We'll be now moving into our second round of questioning, starting with Mr. Shields for five minutes.

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I think we've heard a little bit about protection zones a few times.

Mr. Carter, do you have an idea what a protection zone would look like, reading the legislation?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Wildlife Federation

Kelly Carter

Reading the legislation, no I don't. I think it's vague and unclear in regard to how it could be incorporated, interpreted and enacted. I think that's where some of our members' concerns definitely arise.

We would like to see clarity on this and would be willing to put forward a recommendation or consideration for that.

As it stands right now, it leaves uncertainty.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Would you submit that from your organization?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Wildlife Federation

Kelly Carter

Yes, I could look at putting that together.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

I have one last thing for you, then.

When you talk about confusion, you mentioned provinces, you talked about a water council and we talked about an indigenous water council.

Do you feel that there will be clarity when we have three different organizations out there that are going to be dealing with this, and then you throw the minister in to do what he wants?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Wildlife Federation

Kelly Carter

I think it's what you call “kicking the ball”. It's just being passed around.

I can speak personally on this. People want to see some action. They want to see safe drinking water everywhere. They want to see access to water and the protection of water. Water impacts everyone. I think that's where there is probably agreement at the table. It's difficult when you start talking about water ownership—who owns water, who accesses it—and the rules.

We need safe, clean drinking water to recreate in, to drink, to live and to sustain life. That's where we'd like to see it move forward. Creating multiple bodies doesn't help get us to a solution sometimes. Action does.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you.

I have the same question for the Six Nations chief about when we see different bodies being organized and a minister with the final “maybe” say. It doesn't say that he consults, but it doesn't say that he has to get agreement.

4:30 p.m.

Six Nations of the Grand River

Chief Sherri-Lyn Hill

Thank you for that.

It's going to be a mess and a lot of confusion. Again, water has no boundaries. Every level of government needs to work together to find solutions as equal levels of authority.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Great. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Grand Chief, I'll ask you the same thing. When we have proposed a number of bodies and a minister, where do you think this is going to go?