Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[Irving Leblanc]

There's one last comment, then. It [Technical difficulty—Editor].

There's a parallel process going on in the environment committee, and that's with the Canada water agency and the modernization of the Canada Water Act. Those go hand in hand with the development of this water legislation. It has a direct impact on what comes out of those. The health of fresh water is going to be addressed in the protection zone issue. Those really go hand in hand with each other.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much for that clarification.

[Chief Betsy Kennedy]

I just want to add something.

Thank you all for acknowledging our loss in Manitoba with the passing our late Grand Chief Cathy Merrick. She had been very supportive of what we are doing in the way of protecting our waters.

I just want to add also that in 2008, AMC had brought a resolution in Canada's proposed drinking water legislation. I want to be able to send that to the committee so you can take a look at it, because this has been a concern for quite some time. I've been chief since 2006, and the water situation has been the same. It has not changed at all, which is the reason we are here trying to protect our first nations.

Thank you for listening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Chief Kennedy.

I want to thank all of our witnesses. Of course, we could certainly spend another few hours here, and I really appreciate your time and your input. The briefs you've submitted in advance are certainly going to enrich the study of this legislation, as well as the amendments that I'm sure will be coming down the road. I just want to thank you again.

We're going to briefly suspend before we move to our next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call this meeting back to order.

I am very grateful for our second panel and our great witnesses we'll have here today, including the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Canada's Minister of Indigenous Services. She's flanked by department officials, including Gina Wilson, Paula Hadden-Jokiel, Nelson Barbosa and Douglas Fairbairn.

With that, we're going to jump right into it here.

Minister, I'll hand the floor over to you to deliver opening remarks of five minutes or less.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will be able to stay slightly longer than originally scheduled because of the delay in the start time, but I think we have a hard stop at a quarter to the hour. I really do want to have a full conversation here.

I'm really glad that the committee has listened to so many witnesses over the study of this legislation. It's so important that we respect the voices of first nations, and the diversity of those expressions and perspectives is what makes us such a fantastic country.

I'm very happy to join you today on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe people to discuss Bill C-61, which, as you know, is called the First Nations Clean Water Act. This bill, as you've heard through witnesses, reflects an immense amount of work, of collaboration, knowledge sharing, and real heart from first nations partners. It really is their work, their contributions and their leadership that have brought us to this point today.

The day Bill C-61 was introduced, Chief Erica Beaudin of Cowessess First Nation said, “I believe that today is historic; not only because the bill has been introduced, but because it is the start of that day where our children will be born with the regulations that are needed.”

As the bill moves through the parliamentary process, it's now our responsibility as parliamentarians to treat this bill with the respect and the urgency that it deserves. I agree with everyone that it is unacceptable that there are first nations communities that do not have safe and clean drinking water, and that's what led to the promise to end long-term drinking water advisories that was made in 2015, and we have made significant progress. In fact, I'm pleased to share that just yesterday, Fort Severn First Nation lifted their long-term drinking water advisory. That one had been in place since December 2022.

However, we will never be out of this cycle of long-term boil water advisories and short-term boil water advisories if we don't fix the system that allowed for this process to happen in the first place. That's what the underlying intent behind Bill C-61 is. It's to change the way we do things in this country so that we're not ever again in the position that we were in 2015.

Bill C-61 would establish minimum standards for water services on first nations lands based on first nation choice. It would affirm the inherent right of first nations to self-government with respect to water, supporting first nations' authority, management, maintenance and protection of their water in, on and under their lands.

It also reinforces the essential role that provinces and territories play. You've heard many stories through this study of provincial governments, including while I was here listening to other witnesses—provincial governments that have ignored and excluded first nations when it comes to water rights and resource management. As a federal government, we do have the responsibility to make sure that first nations have the tools they need to ensure that their inherent rights are affirmed and that their jurisdiction is respected.

In fact, Chief Knowlton said, “You ought to be behind us or in front of us or beside us in any battles that we're going to have with Alberta. That's federal jurisdiction. Your obligation, the fiduciary responsibility of Canada, is to protect the first nations you signed treaty with.”

I know that no provincial or territorial governments chose to appear as part of this study, and it's disappointing, because it's actually an opportunity for provinces and territories to work more closely with first nations partners, but this legislation does provide tools to encourage and support those relationships, and it's a signal of the critical need for this legislation.

Bill C-61 requires the Government of Canada to make best efforts in providing adequate and sustainable funding for water services on first nations lands, and that the services be comparable to those in non-indigenous communities. The term “best efforts” sets a high standard through which the Government of Canada is legally accountable to first nations. Furthermore, the flexibility in the bill also ensures first nations will determine exactly what resources they need to properly fund and maintain their water systems.

The Atlantic First Nations Water Authority said it well:

One has to come before the other. We don't know how much money we need until we develop our regulations. With those regulations, we can then set forward how much money we need and what our long-term strategic vision for that infrastructure would be.

Bill C-61 is a reflection of the direct engagement, extensive collaboration and knowledge sharing with first nations partners, and you've heard many witnesses talk about how they've contributed to the bill and what they've advocated for inclusion.

First nations partners closely collaborated on this bill, and we've been working with first nations partners and keeping them up to date. I hope that this sets a path for the kind of co-development this country could use for many different kinds of legislation.

The engagement process didn't end at introduction. We've continued through the work that you're doing in this study, and as I've said from the beginning, we're open to ways that we can make this bill even stronger, guided by first nations voices.

Chief Emerita Emily Whetung-MacInnes asked us:

Please do not politicize [our] first nations' access to one of the basic necessities of life. This is a matter that is too important to get caught up in party politics. The legislation that you're considering relates to a subsection of Canadians whose human rights have been ignored for too long.

Bill C-61 is a critical step toward making sure future generations in communities like Neskantaga, Tataskweyak and Curve Lake will never know what it's like to live without reliable and safe drinking water. By working together, we have an opportunity to make this a reality for thousands of people.

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to answer any questions or share more information with the committee about how important this bill is.

Meegwetch. Qujannamiik.Marsi. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Minister.

With that, we will go right into our first round of questioning.

From the Conservative Party, it's Mr. Melillo. You have six minutes.

I just want to mention one thing before we start. There have been some issues with the sound. Make sure that when you're speaking, it goes into the microphone. As we know, some members of the committee and some witnesses have had trouble hearing the questions.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I appreciate your patience with us, as we ran over time in the previous panel.

I also appreciate you acknowledging the work of the committee here in listening to first nation voices. I think it's been very important. Frankly, I do think that we've all been working in pretty good faith to improve this legislation

It does feel like we are doing some of the consultation that could have been done prior to the development of this legislation. Minister, you've claimed this bill has been co-developed, I believe, or close to being co-developed. That was a term that you used, but we have heard from many first nations that do not feel that their voices have been heard on this.

Chief Sheldon Sunshine told the committee that “Bill C-61 garnered the support of only 100 out of 600-plus first nations”. The context of that was a discussion around the Assembly of First Nations.

We've heard some amendments that were brought forward. We've also heard from some chiefs and community leaders who want to scrap the bill altogether. On such an important topic, I think that is a shock to many. It is the reality of the situation that we are in because of such a lack of consultation.

Can you explain, Minister, how that consultation process went and why so many voices have been left out of it?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I would say that extensive consultation has been ongoing. In fact, we've had a concerted and direct outreach with Treaty 6, Treaty 7 and Treaty 8 nations, which do not feel that AFN represents their voices. We have worked with them both at the political level—myself, with direct consultations with those chiefs—and with the department. We have had numerous meetings and consultations, listening to ideas from that region to make sure that their thoughts and perspectives were included.

We've historically published online a draft of the legislation and the approach to the legislation so that people could have access all across the country. We've held hundreds of consultations. We've held coast-to-coast tours. The AFN has held coast-to-coast tours, as well as Canada.

I would say that we are continuing to listen, just as you are. We have heard some very strong ideas about how to improve the bill. Those are important. As I've said publicly in the House and elsewhere, we are very open to amendments that strengthen the legislation. We'll continue to listen to partners—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I'll also say, if I could finish my thought, Mr. Chair—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister; I appreciate that. I do have limited time—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I'll also say is that most chiefs say there is a gap now—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Chair, with respect, I would like to take back my time—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There is no regulation or protection and we must put forward our legislation.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Minister and members, I'm going to pause for a second here.

When there's crosstalk, it makes it very difficult for the interpreters to do their work. Only one person should be speaking at a time.

Mr. Melillo, the floor is yours.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I do appreciate the answer, but I'm sure you can also appreciate the limited time we have here in committee.

I want to speak about the number of long-term drinking water advisories.

Earlier this year in the House, when I rose to speak about this issue, there were 28 long-term advisories in place at that time. As of the publicly available data on September 28, there were 33. That's obviously an increase.

Minister, do you have the number of how many long-term drinking water advisories are in place today?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There are 32.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

There are 32, so yes, as I mentioned, that number has increased over the course of this year. Unfortunately, from an overall perspective, we have added more drinking water advisories. Can you describe what breakdown has allowed that to happen to the point that advisories are now actually being added?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, first of all, I'd like to point out that since 2015 we've lifted 144 long-term boil water advisories. With all respect to the member, I find it a little ironic that under the previous Conservative government, in fact, complete neglect led to 144 boil water advisories, but I will say—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Minister, we can talk about previous governments forever. You've had nine years.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will say that all of the information about where each boil water advisory is at is publicly available as part of the commitment to transparency on this issue with Canadians.

As you know in hearing from chiefs and councils, there are a variety of reasons why a short-term boil water advisory may become a long-term one. We work with each community to make sure we have the appropriate solutions presented and in place for communities to eventually get to those being lifted.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'd like to ask about a local example from my district community, Mishkeegogamang First Nation, which you know well.

On January 19, 2024, they had their long-term drinking water advisory lifted, but in May 8 of that year the community was back under a drinking water advisory. Again, this was a complete failure on the part of Indigenous Services Canada to ensure that this nation was able to maintain their clean drinking water. What happened in that scenario of Mishkeegogamang to allow that to happen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Minister, we'll have a brief answer, if that's possible.