Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Shields.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

Thank you. I'm just going to say something on that, and I'm going to give you both heck, the Liberals and the Conservatives.

The Conservatives had a 2013 bill that we had to repeal. That's why we're here. We're trying to fix that through this bill. I know that we have a long way to go, but I think you're both at fault.

My knowledge keeper here has been working in first nations for us for his entire life, so I'd like to give him the honour and respect of saying a few words.

[Irving Leblanc]

Thank you, National Chief and Chair.

I've been at this for quite a while, as the national chief says, since 2006, and before that with Chiefs of Ontario on the Walkerton tragedy.

During my time at the AFN, we had the opportunity to meet with former minister Prentice, bless his soul, and when he was quizzed on what it would take to sort out this problem, he said, “It's a matter of money,” and that's all it is. It's a matter of money and the will of the government to put their will and efforts into addressing what you just mentioned, Mr. Shields.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Shields.

Next we will be going to Ms. Atwin for two and a half minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I know we are very limited on time. There is so much that I could say, but I want to hear the voices of indigenous people. I want to hear the voices of our leadership who are here today. It's amazing to have your testimony.

Really quickly, I'll jump right in.

National Chief, you've been involved from the very beginning of this bill. How did the AFN approach developing and structuring that engagement process?

We've heard a lot about that consultation. Some are feeling left out. Can you speak about what that process looked like?

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

I can, absolutely. Thank you for that.

I know we had seen that there was a huge gap in this country, of course. I know that these discussions are always tough to have, but I have to say that I commend many of the technicians, the Assembly of First Nations staff and the chiefs for giving a mandate. Our chiefs come to our assemblies. They tell us what they wish. We're bringing that forward today in a good way. Certainly they have called on us for many years to try to fix and to repeal some of that, and to make sure that there is something protecting us.

As we see right now, there is so much dumping into waters. It's from everybody. Every industry is at fault. We're all at fault—each and every one of us.

We don't look at our carbon footprint half the time, myself included. I know that we have to do something.

I commend the bureaucrats and many of the people around this table who have committed to try to work through this. I ask you to really, seriously consider the amendments to this bill from the Assembly of First Nations. Let's move forward very quickly, so that we can get to royal assent.

I think we all know that there is always a ticking every day. Every day we have time to breathe and time to do this work while we're here. Let's make it better so that our children don't have to be sitting here talking about this same issue and so that we're protecting ourselves for the next generations to come.

The way it is right now, when you see gallons of raw sewage being dumped into rivers and chemicals being dumped into our rivers and lakes, what are we doing to ourselves? There is no planet B and there is no extra water somewhere. We have most of it here in our beautiful country. Let's work on it and keep it together.

I'll stop there. I don't know if my knowledge keeper wants to say anything else.

[Irving Leblanc]

Thank you, National Chief.

Chair, I'll just be very quick with more of a technical issue.

The actual process was that the AFN did cross-country engagements in every region. We met with first nations technicians and others. That resulted in documents distilling 26 conceptual points of what we heard across the country. Those were distilled into the six critical points that the national chief mentioned at the start, including liability, funding and source water protection.

That was the process. At the time, AFN did its due diligence and got the input from every region.

Again, that's through direction from a resolution from the chiefs and the assembly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Atwin.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for a minute and a half.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Grand Chief Woodhouse, do you support the ban on the construction of a nuclear waste dump near Deep River and Chalk River along the Kitchissippi River, or the Ottawa River?

It's obvious to first nations like the Anishinabe, as well as to us. I'm curious to hear your perspective.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

Absolutely, I am. Why would you want to put nuclear waste by source water or by water that we're all going to have to drink and that our grandchildren are going to have to drink?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That's our challenge in the east, particularly in Quebec, just as oil development can be a challenge in the west.

You said that provincial governments should not negotiate in bad faith or shirk their responsibilities when negotiating agreements on protected areas. What means would allow first nations to assert themselves and protect the surface water that over four million people rely on, while respecting the territory's cultural practices?

Industries are often given a free pass, and there are no regulations preventing them from using this drinking water. In addition, there's no obligation regarding the quality of the water they discharge into nature. I agree with the chiefs of the Cold Lake First Nations and the Kehewin Cree Nation that there are elements missing from this bill regarding the social responsibility inherent in compliance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. These include the obligation of companies and the government to protect water and residents.

[Chief Kelsey Jacko]

Yes, it's very frustrating. I hear your.... On liability and whatnot, the science is not absolute. Just on the study, you know, people still eat fish. Fish used to be the healthiest food around.

It's kind of hard, to tell you the truth, with French and whatnot in the earpiece.

How do you think about balance? Everybody thinks about economics, but the environment is suffering. Even the species at risk.... It just seems like it's being ignored. It just seems like economics trump the environment, and we're really going down the road. It's hard, and we're frustrated. We don't even have a seat at the table when we talk about these talks.

When you talk about droughts, we're considered “others”, and that's kind of disrespectful when we're the first peoples of these lands. We should be involved in the science. You know, you can get water from the air, but when you're going to be dumping tailings ponds into the rivers, we don't think that's safe. Where are we going to go in an environment catastrophe? The footprints are still getting larger, right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Chief, I'm very, very sorry. I am going to have to—

[Chief Kelsey Jacko]

Yes, I could go on here every day, all day long. You know, this is not enough time. There's room for amendments. I gave my technical supports and everything, but we're here today in good faith. I'm being nice. I'm being kind, but thank you for your time. I hope we have more time in the future.

Mahsi.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Next we will go back to Ms. Idlout for just a minute and a half here.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

I share your frustration with the lack of time being given to ask our witnesses questions. I wish we had a better process. I think that we can do a lot better as a committee.

My question will be for the legal counsel, Christopher Rapson.

Knowing that treaties are not being implemented to their fullest with first nations and knowing that Canada has ratified multiple international instruments related to the human right to water, can you share with us how this government...? How do you, as a lawyer, reconcile the statement of defence in the Shamattawa case?

I'll quote what they said in their statement of defence regarding the Shamattawa First Nation: “Canada does not owe any legal obligations or duties to operate and maintain the plaintiffs' water systems.”

Can you respond to that, please?

[Christopher Rapson]

Yes, I can, absolutely.

Of course, the Assembly of First Nations would disagree with that legal position taken by Department of Justice lawyers in the Shamattawa case. We support Shamattawa in their class action, and of course we believe that Canada does have that legal obligation. We believe that it's rooted in the Constitution; it's rooted in treaty. Certainly Canada has adopted those instruments of international human rights.

The DOJ position stated in that case does not align with those laws, and this is all the more reason that we need this bill. We need this bill to make it clear, without “best efforts”, because of course first nations cannot rely on the best efforts of federal governments. We need firm commitments to make it crystal clear to DOJ lawyers and to everyone else that Canada does bear that legal obligation.

That's how I would respond.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

Next, for two and a half minutes, we'll be moving to Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I did not know we had another round. I appreciate the opportunity to ask a couple more questions here. I'm just thinking of where I left off.

Speaking of the amendments being put forward, I appreciate everyone's having those discussions.

I'll go to Chief John and then Chief Jacko.

I'll ask you both to comment on the consultation process and how this has played out. We've heard, I think, some varying things, depending on who has been speaking. Obviously, there has been some involvement of first nations, but as the NDP member alluded to, the overall consultation has been with a very small number of first nations across the country. I'm wondering if you could speak to what input in the development process you really should have.

[Chief Kelsey Jacko]

It's very frustrating, because we've had zero input or consultation on the making of this bill. I share the sentiment of the chief of the Mikisew, who talks about water. Nobody talks about water except my nation. Water is the spirit of my life.

We have to deal with Alberta. We need a seat at the table. Our words are being unheard. How do we deal with the Alberta government when all of our lakes are poisonous? When I was young, I could drink water from everywhere. Cold Lake is the only two-sourced water left in Alberta. It's a very pristine lake, and I hope we can keep it that way.

We need input on this. We need a seat at the table when they're talking about treaty rights being impacted, because everything comes from source water. What are the animals going to eat? Biodiversity is changing. It's just frustrating.

You talk about consultation; we had zero input in the making of this bill, and that should change. We're here today talking about amendments. My technician has already given input. We need a seat at the table. We're already in court. Why can't we solve these issues? We should be at the table right from the start when you're talking about water. When we're born, we all come from water. Water is life. Things have to change.

I'll leave it at that before you cut me off.

Mahsi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.

For our final questioner here, I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Battiste for two and a half minutes or less.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the testimony, chiefs.

National Chief, it's very good to see you and hear from you today.

We've seen, throughout the history of Canada, a lot of environmental racism in terms of first nations communities being impacted by corporations, provincial orders and a lot of different things. I know some of the communities impacted by this.

I'm wondering if you could speak a little about how not only this legislation but also the environmental racism legislation we put forth can help address some of the problems that are outstanding.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

Thank you for that question.

Regarding Bill C-61, there are many areas the AFN and first nations across Canada have consistently advocated for: the recognition of our inherent right over source water—I think we have to work towards that; the minimum binational standards, of course; commitment to a funding framework; and liability protection for water service employees of first nations governments. We have a lot of issues we need to work through.

You're absolutely right. As Chief Jacko said, there's too much industry. What trumps that? Is it the environment or industry? We're not in balance, my friends. We know that. As we're working through this very important moment in the history of our people, we need to work together and get this right.

You've heard from many of us today. You've heard from our experts. We've submitted our written submission already, I'm sure. We urge all of you to read through that and take into strong consideration AFN's position, and our amendments. Let's make this right and get this right, once and for all. Let's move this very quickly. We don't have time to wait. The planet is waiting for us. First nations are waiting for clean drinking water every single day. That's unacceptable. I urge you all to get down to business.

I'm looking at the staff in the back. Thank you for your commitment as well.

Let's get this right and let's get this to royal assent with the amendments.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

That will conclude our first panel.